Thank You Jurgen and Andy, now it's clear.
A more common gray balance definition (C=M=Y, or C>M=Y as G7) could improve the use of eciCMYK from the early stage of graphic projects, but is not mandatory.
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2017 9:15 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 81, Issue 1
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
You can reach the person managing the list at
eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. eciCMYK gray balance (Beltrami, Alessandro)
2. Re: eciCMYK gray balance (Juergen Seitz)
3. Re: eciCMYK gray balance (Andreas Kraushaar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 12:37:37 +0000
From: "Beltrami, Alessandro" <alessandro.beltrami(a)hp.com>
Subject: [ECI-EN] eciCMYK gray balance
To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com"
<eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID:
<AT5PR84MB0067F2983B51AD141299E61D95290(a)AT5PR84MB0067.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi All, someone knows the rationale behind the gray balance used in eciCMYK (FOGRA53)?
Converting neutral Lab values to eciCMYK the resulting CMY values are really unbalanced: the M values are really low, that implies an higher TVI on Magenta channel represented on the original FOGRA53 characterization.
Thank You
Hi All, someone knows the rationale behind the gray balance used in eciCMYK (FOGRA53)?
Converting neutral Lab values to eciCMYK the resulting CMY values are really unbalanced: the M values are really low, that implies an higher TVI on Magenta channel represented on the original FOGRA53 characterization.
Thank You
Hi Sandis,
I do not understand your problem. It's not a big deal generate a device
link profile. There are several softwares with fthis function and it is
about 2 minutes. There is no rule just ECI has to make profiles (free
profiles).
Regards,
Pal Bekesy
Hungary
2017-07-26 12:00 GMT+02:00 <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com>:
> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Offset profiles Device Link (Sandis Freimanis|Livonia Print)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 09:30:42 +0300
> From: Sandis Freimanis|Livonia Print
> <sandis.freimanis(a)livoniaprint.lv>
> Subject: [ECI-EN] Offset profiles Device Link
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <44EFEA2B-FA2C-4337-8590-2CC289C2D0F4(a)livoniaprint.lv>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi all
>
> Does anybody knows the reason, why there there is no available
> Device Link Profile for public usage for PSO Uncoated Fogra 47_to_PSO
> Uncoated v3 Fogra 52,
> while Device Link Profile for ISO coated v2_to_PSO coated v3 is available
> since 30.09.2015 on
> ECI.org <http://eci.org/> website?
>
> Regards
> Sandis
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.callassoftware.com/pipermail/eci-en/
> attachments/20170726/ce7c8434/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
> End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 80, Issue 7
> *************************************
>
Dear ECI members,
I was looking at your icc-profile for uncoated paper (PSO Uncoated ISO 12647) and noticed it seems to have a maximum total ink coverage of about 290%. Isn't that way too much for uncoated paper? Every printer I've spoken to agrees 260% should be the limit, or the print will be too dark and dry slowly. Most people using your profiles convert the limit to 260% in their RIP.
Would be interesting to hear your view on this. Thank you.
Tobias,
260% is an old, accepted specification for uncoated paper. But many printers
push the maximum to 270, 280 and beyond.
I agree that 290% seems like a lot but it all depends on the image, large
290% subject areas could spell trouble on an older press but smaller 290%
areas would be fine.
It all depends at what densities the printer is printing to, keep in mind.
MfG / Roger
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Kvant
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 10:04 AM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: [ECI-EN] Uncoated profile total ink
Dear ECI members,
I was looking at your icc-profile for uncoated paper (PSO Uncoated ISO
12647) and noticed it seems to have a maximum total ink coverage of about
290%. Isn't that way too much for uncoated paper? Every printer I've spoken
to agrees 260% should be the limit, or the print will be too dark and dry
slowly. Most people using your profiles convert the limit to 260% in their
RIP.
Would be interesting to hear your view on this. Thank you.
Hello everybody
where can I buy the target ECI2002 for generate eciRGB v2?
I work with Cruse scanner so I need to generate an ICC profile eciRGB v2.
Wich is the differences between ECI2002R and ECI2002V?
Thanks!
With the release of English Version MediaStandard Print 2016, there is an explanation we can use existing Fogra45/PSO LWC Improved (ECI) and Fogra46/PSO LWC Standard (ECI) for the new Printing Substrates 2, 3 & 4.
1) Is there a plan to update these with new characterisation data and profiles any time soon?
The data sets and profiles for PS1 and 5 have been available for a while now, but many of our existing heatset web customers are now waiting and urgently asking for the new data sets and profiles.
2) If we use the existing Fogra45/PSO LWC Improved (ECI) and Fogra46/PSO LWC Standard (ECI) for PS 2, 3 & 4, how should we set up the proofing systems? Should we use M1?
3) We will of course use M1 to measure and check production press sheet samples, right?
4) We do understand that PS 2, 3 & 4 will have, and usually has, minimal OBA’s. So are you saying that there will be little difference with using M0 and M1on these stocks?
Kind regards,
David Crowther
Colour & Print Consultant
Colour Graphic Services Pty Ltd
www.colourgraphicservices.com
+61 400 123 398
Member - (EX-004) Australian ISO Technical Committee for Graphic Technology TC 130
www.colourstandards.com.au
dc.cgs1(a)bigpond.com
Hello colleagues,
bvdm has published the english version MediaStandard Print 2016 as a
free download. A must have for print buyers, designers, prepress
specialists and offset printers which want to work according ISO
12647-2:2013, FOGRA51/52 and eci-profiles.
Directlink:
https://www.bvdm-online.de/fileadmin/tundf/bvdm_Mediastandard_Print_2016.pdf
Best regards
Jan-Peter Homann
www.colormanagement.de
Further background informations:
*Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)*
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
Öffentlichkeitsarbeit
Friedrichstraße 194-199
D-10117 Berlin
E-Mail presse(a)bvdm-online.de <mailto:presse@bvdm-online.de>
Internet www.bvdm-online.de <http://www.bvdm-online.de/>
Publikationen: www.bvdm-online.de/shop/ <http://www.bvdm-online.de/shop/>
Jetzt vormerken/jetzt anmelden:
15. Feb. – 16. Feb. Digitaldruck-Kongress 2017
<http://www.bvdm-online.de/service/veranstaltungen/digitaldruck-kongress-201…>
_Ihre Ansprechpartner_
Frau
Bettina Knape
Pressesprecherin
Telefon +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-171
Telefax +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-113
Email _bk(a)bvdm-online.de <mailto:bk@bvdm-online.de>___
__
Herr
Wolf Witte
Referent Öffentlichkeitsarbeit
Telefon +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-172
Telefax +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-113
Email _ww(a)bvdm-online.de <mailto:ww@bvdm-online.de>___
to anyone:
https://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-research/wc-digital-printing/technical-commi…
go to the bottom ...
Andy
________________________________________
Von: Alex Crickmore <Alex.Crickmore(a)gmgcolor.com>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Februar 2017 15:09
An: Andreas Kraushaar; eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Betreff: Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 78, Issue 12
Hiya Andreas
Is the remote access available for me to use?
> On 7 Feb 2017, at 13:46, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com wrote:
>
> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: eci offset profiles surface finished. (Andreas Kraushaar)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 13:38:25 +0000
> From: Andreas Kraushaar <Kraushaar(a)fogra.org>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished.
> To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com"
> <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> Message-ID: <1486474708233.52624(a)fogra.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Axel, all,
>
>
> let me all clarify the financing of Fogra since I often hear this kind of "they benefit from a socialism kinda government funding" :-)
>
>
> First we are financed by members and therefore need to stay competitive to keep them and gain more. At the end we have members from the entire food chain (supplier (not the majority), print service providers, repro houses, consultants, print buyers). And that by the way ensures our neutrality ("He who pays the piper, calls the tune.")!
>
>
> Then we apply for research grants on a project by project basis and only get funding if it is scientifically and economical sophisticated (focussing on the contribution of >30 small and medium companies that we need to convince to support that project).
>
>
> Tomorrow for instance the industry interesting in digital printing is meeting in Munich (Agenda, Login for remote access etc: https://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-research/wc-digital-printing/technical-commi…)
>
>
> Here we expect more than 30 attendees (+ remote attendees) from worldwide to discuss the ongoing projects and in particular the new projects. So we provide a platform where the industry can come and say: "Please ask for tax money to solve my problem XXX" to put it very straight.
>
>
> As anyone knows research is never beneficial, we have to do some normal commercial activities to achieve the black zero (such as seminars, control strips, certifications, symposiums etc).
>
>
> So join tomorrow and learn how you can contribute!
>
>
> regards
>
> Andy? Kraushaar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com <eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> im Auftrag von Karl Michael Meinecke <KarlMichael.Meinecke(a)online.de>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Februar 2017 13:41
> An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished.
>
> Dear Axel, all,
>
> Olaf?s point is most important. Only sustainable co-operation, support and contribution of industry experts provides new standards, applications, profiles. Including the participation of users, printing and prepress companies ? supported by their associations. This worked for many years: Great efforts of a small number of individuals and companies for the benefit of the industry on international level.
>
> I also want to clarify the misunderstanding with respect to the funding of bvdm. There is no public funding of bvdm and it?s regional associacions vdm. The associacions are funded only via membership fees. Second, revenues from activities such as additional consulting sevices and training activities offered to the industry (users, member companies). Members of the associations (vdm) are german printing companies, prepress and postpress companies ? the users in the industry. Bvdm/vdm is the german employers association of the printing and media industries (like UNIIC in France www.com-unic.fr<http://www.com-unic.fr>). The membership is voluntarily. Many companies are not member of the associacion (vdm) ? but are taking advantage of the benefits anyway. This includes e.g. development of professional training, job profiles, curriculae; development and support of standards, technical solutions; economic support and representation (industry policy, regulations, taxes on national a
> nd european level).
>
> The manufacturers of machinery, materials and systems are not funding bvdm/vdm either. They are running their own associacions such as vdma (machinery), vdp (paper), VdL (printing ink). In many cases the manufacturers ? as suppliers of the printing industry (users) ? have different positions e.g. with respect to quality and performance of delivered goods and services. This is in some cases subject of negotiations between bvdm and supplier associacions (agreements or recommendations) ? e.g. the terms for the commissioning of printing presses, prepress and postpress equipment (guidelines, technical criteria, testing procedures).
>
> However, bvdm/vdm and manufacturers associations are co-operating on many topics, e.g. the support and further development of print media, on national and international level. Examples are www.fr.twosides.info/<http://www.fr.twosides.info/> www.printpower.eu/<http://www.printpower.eu/> Probably the most important area of co-operation between bvdm/vdm, manufacturers and other organisations (ECI, Fogra) is the development of technical standards and applications, see above. This is established for many years and the prerequisite for a successful development of technical quality industry standards and application tools (bvdm/ECI/Fogra ?).
>
> Best Regards
> Karl Michael
> (senior consultant at bvdm 1980-2016)
>
> ***
> Karl Michael Meinecke
> E-Mail: karlmichael.meinecke(a)online.de<mailto:karlmichael.meinecke@online.de>
>
> Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Olaf Dr?mmer
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Februar 2017 12:05
> An: Mailing List [ECI-EN]
> Cc: Olaf Dr?mmer
> Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished.
>
> Hi Axel
>
> I don't think anybody was offended! I just wanted to point out that everybody - including a 'little prepress manager' - has the freedom to decide where to invest his/her resources.This does not mean that it **has to be you** who should invest in the development of the requested new profiles. But it could be you... (or just about anybody else in the industry).
>
> Olaf
>
>
>
> On 07 Feb 2017, at 11:52, Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com<mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>> wrote:
>
> Hello Olaf,
>
> Apologize I have offended anyone here.
> It was of course not the goal at all.
>
> Nevertheless, I also paid in the past for the French ISO (aka CNTCG) in order to move things forward.
> I was the only big customer and almost no printer was involved too.
> So, I know how it could be difficult in term of personal investment.
>
> The fact is, I?m afraid not to be clever and brilliant enough, to technically participate to the elaboration of this.
> I don?t have your skills. At the risk of repeating myself, I?m just a little prepress manager. ?
>
>
> Regards.
> Axel
>
>
> From: <eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> on behalf of Olaf Dr?mmer <olaflist(a)callassoftware.com<mailto:olaflist@callassoftware.com>>
> Reply-To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>" <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
> Date: mardi 7 f?vrier 2017 11:03
> To: "Mailing List [ECI-EN]" <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
> Cc: Olaf Dr?mmer <olaflist(a)callassoftware.com<mailto:olaflist@callassoftware.com>>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished.
>
> Hi Axel, hi everyone else on this list,
>
> On 07 Feb 2017, at 10:22, Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com<mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>> wrote:
>
> But firstly, we are followers, not owners of the new standards.
>
>
> while nobody can be an owner of all the standards that matter to him/her, it is ultimately everybody's own choice whether to become an owner of a certain standard or a driver for the work for and around a standard. Standards are made by ordinary people (who are hardly ever being paid for making standards - rather the opposite: in Germany we have to pay annual fees - on a per person/per committee basis - to be allowed to participate in national and international standardization work) .
>
> While it is true there has been (less and less) government and similar funding for some organizations, and while some leading manufacturers have contributed significantly in the past (and continue to do so), each and every bit of what the group of ECI, Fogra, bdvm, Ifra and Ugra have developed in the last 20 or so years is a mix of contributions also from many 'smaller players' (smaller printing houses, media service providers, ...), all the way down to freelance professionals. In many cases people have mostly invested their personal / private time - quite a few contributors who are employees do their work 'on the side'/as a hobby, and the same is true for freelancers.
>
> The ultimate question is: do you care enough (or do you feel enough pain) to get involved and help take next steps, or not? If there is not enough pain, let's wait until it gets bigger... (or goes away?) ;-)
>
>
> Maybe one day someone looking for improvements/further developments around the standards he/she uses will ask: What is needed to get there? How can I help?
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>
Dear Dieter,
I am afraid that most of our printer would not be able to change anything in their own process;
especially with the curves adaptation in their own RIP.
This is, alas, what I too often hear around me.
And I also think it’s not devoted to the ordering customer to do this job. ☺
That is why I would like so much an ECI update.
Anyhow, many thanks for your clever and clear answer.
Regards.
Axel
From: <eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> on behalf of "Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm)" <dk(a)bvdm-online.de>
Reply-To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com" <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Date: lundi 6 février 2017 11:39
To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com" <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished.
Dear Axel,
the need to create “v3 laminate profiles” may depend on the common progress in switching to F51 (and F52).
Apart from colorimetric differences, the main difference between F39 and F49/F50 is the epic reduction of TVIs:
F39 --> F49/F50 requires [curve A (40 % + 13 % = 53 % in CMY patches) and curve B (40 % + 16 % = 56 % in K patch)] –10 % = 43 % (CMY) and 46 % (K) by application of film. (Furthermore: –5…7 % by application of UV coat, –2…4 % by application of dispersion coat.)
If you already switched to the new printing conditions with all their changes in M1 measuring mode and D50 lighting, you could try to apply the TVI reductions to the F51 profile:
F51 by application of film would require curve A (40 % + 15,3 % = 55,3 % in CMYK patches)] –10 % = 45,3 % in the 40 % CMYK patches.
It’s not trivial but worth to find out how good the harmonized TVI curves would work with films.
Best regards,
Dieter
Dieter Kleeberg
Referent Technik + Forschung
[id:image001.png@01D0CED7.BA383280]
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
Friedrichstraße 194–199
D-10117 Berlin
Telefon +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-164
Mobil +49 (0) 160 / 65 184 60
Telefax +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-113
Email: dk(a)bvdm-online.de<mailto:dk@bvdm-online.de>
Internet: www.bvdm-online.de<http://www.bvdm-online.de/>
Folgen Sie uns auf Twitter: http://twitter.com/Der_bvdm
Jetzt vormerken / Jetzt anmelden:
15. – 16. Feb. 2017 Digitaldruck-Kongress 2017<http://www.bvdm-online.de/service/veranstaltungen/digitaldruck-kongress-201…>
Publikationen: www.bvdm-online.de/shop/<http://www.bvdm-online.de/shop/>
ProzessStandard Offsetdruck www.prozess-standard.com<http://www.prozess-standard.com/>
PSO ProcessStandard Offset ISO 12647 www.pso-insider.de<http://www.pso-insider.de/>
R16 roman16 bvdm Reference Images www.roman16.com<http://www.roman16.com/>
CO2 Klimainitiative bvdm - Climate initiative www.klima-druck.de<http://www.klima-druck.de/>
MSD MedienStandard Druck www.bvdm-online.de/fileadmin/tundf/bvdm_Medienstandard_Druck_2016.pdf<http://www.bvdm-online.de/fileadmin/tundf/bvdm_Medienstandard_Druck_2016.pdf>
Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Axel Robert
Gesendet: Montag, 6. Februar 2017 09:12
An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Betreff: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished.
Wichtigkeit: Hoch
Dear all,
I would like to obtain more information about the following ICC profiles:
PSO_Coated_v2_300_Glossy_laminate_eci.icc
PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc
I partially switched from F39 to F51 and F47 to F52.
But I still use the former (aka F49 and F50).
Should I take into account they also will change since the new printing conditions?
Are they still relevant?
Or should they be adapted?
And if so, when or how?
Thank you for your answer.
Regards.
Axel
Axel Robert | Prepress Manager
Ubisoft EMEA |Manufacturing
28, rue Armand Carrel | 93100 Montreuil | France
Tel: +33(0)1 48 18 52 03 | Skype: axelprepress
