Dear Sir or Madam,
my name is Tjaša and I am studying at the university of Natural
Sciences and Engeneering in Ljubljana (Slovenia). I am allready
writing a degree in Graphic technology about PDF/X standards and
differences between them. I made my own test form to compare different
PDF/X standards and different print devices. I have exported differend
PDF/X standards from Adobe Indesign CS3 and then I have printed them
on different printers (digital printers). Although I was looking for
many answers on the internet I didn't find out why there are
differences between standards in LAB (differences between PDF/X-3 and
PDF/X-4, as I traved an information which mentioned that PDF/X-3 and
PDF/X-4 interpret LAB colors in the same way). I also find out that
PDF/X-1a and PDF/X-3 are smilar and PDF/X-4 and other presets in Adobe
Indesign (such as press quality and high qualilty print) are similar
too in interpreting the LAB colors. I just didn't find out why. The
same problem happened with overpint. Only PDF/X-4 and high quality
preset were printed suitable. The PDF/X-3 and PDF/X-1a didn't
recognize the overprint. Similar happened with pictures (one in CMYK
and the other in RGB color space).. PDF/X-3 made them really similar
while PDF/X-4 made RGB printed pictures much more bright instead they
have the same setting about converting colors during export.
Is it possible to explain this with differences between standards or
it depends on the settings of the RIP?
I will really apreciate any answer you could give me. It wiil be very
helpful.
Best regards
Tjaša Uršič
Dear all
We got a strange effect, when we matt laminated offset printed job.
Colour of skin was normal at printed sheet, but it turns really reddish
after lamination. Different was not small. It had never happened to us
before. Usually laminated job turns to be little bit yellowish, not
reddish.
At the first I thought that there was some chemical reaction between
magenta ink and glue of laminate or heating of lamination effect to
magenta. But I measured dot gain and checked what process colour there
are at skin tone. Dot gain of laminated sheets was about 5 % higher than
unlaminated. At this skin tone there was mainly only magenta and yellow
ink. Result of higher dot gain of both yellow and magenta causes reddish
tone, compared to tone where there are all cmyk inks causes only darker
tones.
Do you have any experience, is this just because optical phenomenon of
uneven surface of matt laminate plastic? Does this happen with gloss
laminate? How do you deal with it? It is not easy to assume to what tone
lamination will effect strongly. Most of case (99.9 %) lamination does
not change tone so strongly. Then to use special lamination ICC profile
to all laminated job is not possible?
Best Regards
------------------------------------------------
Jyrki Kela
Quality and Technology Manager
Erweko Painotuote Oy
Tel. +358 9 7310 2319
Mobile +358 40 7 357 357
Dear Sir or Madam
I was looking for someone that will help mi answer my questions about
PDF/X standards.
Can I write my question and send it to this e-mail address?
Best regards
Tjaša
Hi listmembers,
I represent a sheetfed printing company. One of our customers is a heatset web printing company and we print covers for their magazines.
We print very close to Fogra39, our proofs are mostly spot on and we document and adjust our production with Bodoni pressSIGN software.
Our customer is happy, but often they have spread adds going from Cover page 2 and over on the heatset web body page 3. The body is produced on a Goss press on Galeri Fine Gloss and (they think at least) according to Fogra28. As far as I know this paper is not like Fogra28 and Fogra28 is replaced...anyway...I see three ways to get a close match between our Fogra39 page and their heatset page if we say they can manage colors:
1. Is it possible to produce acording to Fogra39 on Galerie Fine Gloss on a Goss press (ISO coated v2_300)?
This would be the easy way and give the best quality.
2. Color conversion from Customer press ICC profile to Fogra39 with Device Link profiles. We still produce according to Fogra39.
Colors on cover page 2 and 3 are shrinked to heatset web on file level.
3. We simulate Customer press ICC by lowering gamut and gaining dotgain with TVI curves.
Hard way, lot of work for prepress, press and requires two proofs. Not a good solution.
I´m hoping for answers that says that is possible to produce according to Fogra39 in heatset web.
Thanks,
Lars.
Hi Lars
I have found over many web offset projects on papers that are nearer type
1/2 then type 3, that the ISO coated v2 300 profile works very well.
Many magazines in the UK use this profile.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards)
Member - BPIF Technical Standards Committee
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contained within this email.
1. Re: Heatset and Fogra 39 (Nagy P?ter)
2. Re: Heatset and Fogra39?
What you need too have in your minds always when you want to simulate
colours from one out put device to another? Always simulate worse output
device on better device. Under better or worse device I mean all process
including paper, so the process who give you better or worse results (colour
space). So in your case you must to simulate heat set web on sheed fed
press.
Best regards
Jernej Šilc
Eurograf d.o.o.
2009/11/21 <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Heatset and Fogra 39 (Nagy P?ter)
> 2. Re: Heatset and Fogra39? (fpenalver(a)litografiaroses.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:55:00 +0100
> From: Nagy P?ter <peter(a)colorcom.hu>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Heatset and Fogra 39
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <795107B0-D79C-45F1-9800-FFC856A05F7A(a)colorcom.hu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Lars,
>
> this is a frequent problem in our production too. Number 2 should be the
> best way to go as Magnus stated. I should add that it's best to use some
> heavy-duty solution for the DVL conversion like GMG Colorserver, as this
> product not simply does a Colorimetric conversion, but tries to achieve the
> same "look and feel" and visual apperance on the target medium. This is very
> important, because the heat-set papers always more grayish than you use for
> the sheet-fed presses, and GMG may correct for the lowered contrast and
> smaller gamut.
>
> Moreover, try to persuade the web printing house to embrace the new Fogra
> 45 and 46 standards. They're much more closer to the real thing and to Fogra
> 39 too.
>
> Hope this helps, regards,
>
> Peter Nagy
> Colorcom Media
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:38:28 +0100
> From: <fpenalver(a)litografiaroses.com>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Heatset and Fogra39?
> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> Message-ID:
> <2A6AA17CBBDA6349B5DDB5B5B54B56DB03408F54(a)hermes.roses.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Lars
>
> My answer to question #1: Yes.
>
> We produce several magazines with heatset web presses and according to ISO
> 12647-2, and we're using the well-known icc profile from the ECI: ISO Coated
> v2 300% (Fogra39) on Galerie Fine paper.
> I would like to add that I was said that M-real has categorised its Galerie
> Range according to paper groups in ISO 12647-2, and they also have created
> Galerie Fine specific ICC profile from the FOGRA39 data, optimised for
> heatset printing according to ISO 12647-2. We have never tested that
> profile, but I presume that working with that specific profile, you should
> get best quality.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Ferran Pe?alver
> Prepress Area | LITOGRAFIA ROS?S, S.A.
> ?
> ________________________________________
> De: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:
> eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com] En nombre de Lars Jacobsen
> Enviado el: viernes, 20 de noviembre de 2009 14:36
> Para: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Asunto: [ECI-EN] Heatset and Fogra39?
>
> Hi listmembers,
>
> I represent a sheetfed printing company. One of our customers is a heatset
> web printing company and we print covers for their magazines.
> We print very close to Fogra39, our proofs are mostly spot on and we
> document and adjust our production with Bodoni pressSIGN software.
> Our customer is happy, but often they have spread adds going from Cover
> page 2 and over on the heatset web body page 3. The body is produced on a
> Goss press on Galeri Fine Gloss and (they think at least) according to
> Fogra28. As far as I know this paper is not like Fogra28 and Fogra28 is
> replaced...anyway...I see three ways to get a close match between our
> Fogra39 page and their heatset page if we say they can manage colors:
>
> 1. Is it possible to produce acording to Fogra39 on Galerie Fine Gloss on a
> Goss press (ISO coated v2_300)?
> This would be the easy way and give the best quality.
>
> 2. Color conversion from Customer press ICC profile to?Fogra39 with Device
> Link profiles. We still produce according to Fogra39.
> Colors on?cover page 2 and 3 are shrinked to heatset web on file level.
>
> 3. We simulate Customer press ICC by lowering gamut and gaining dotgain
> with TVI curves.
> ?Hard way, lot of work for prepress, press and requires two proofs. Not a
> good solution.
>
>
> I?m hoping for answers that says that is possible to produce according to
> Fogra39 in heatset web.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Lars.
>
> ___________________________________
>
> www.litografiaroses.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
> End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2
> *************************************
>
Hi Lars,
this is a frequent problem in our production too. Number 2 should be the best way to go as Magnus stated. I should add that it's best to use some heavy-duty solution for the DVL conversion like GMG Colorserver, as this product not simply does a Colorimetric conversion, but tries to achieve the same "look and feel" and visual apperance on the target medium. This is very important, because the heat-set papers always more grayish than you use for the sheet-fed presses, and GMG may correct for the lowered contrast and smaller gamut.
Moreover, try to persuade the web printing house to embrace the new Fogra 45 and 46 standards. They're much more closer to the real thing and to Fogra 39 too.
Hope this helps, regards,
Peter Nagy
Colorcom Media
