ECI-EN June 2006

eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com

17 participants
6 discussions

by Nadish Naoroji

Dear Carlo, Many thanks for the info. I had previously rejected this profile on the basis that The ISO Web Coated profile is max 2.5 Delta E off from ISO 12647-2 compliance. The ISO newsprint profile is max 11.4 Delta E off from ISO 12647-2 compliance. I would have preferred a profile with closer compliance than 11.4DE. I am not sure what is causing such high DE numbers. Can anyone clarify? Thanks Nadish Message: 5 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 03:41:31 +0200 From: Carlo Balestrini <carlo.balestrini(a)rcs.it> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ISO Uncoated profile and ink limits To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com, nadish(a)multimatch.biz Message-ID: <DB08F23E-5C4A-44AA-8F6B-5A7BD881639B(a)rcs.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Nadish, you can find the profile that you need in the ifra site www.ifra.com/ WebSite/ifra.nsf/html/cont_consultisoprof it's based on DIS/ISO 12647-3:2004 with a total ink of 240% (ISOnewspaper26v4.icc). Anyway you can find all the characterization data in that you need in the ICC site www.color.org/drsection1.html Regards, Carlo Balestrini RCS Quotidiani Via Rizzoli,2 Milano I-20132 Italy Il giorno 14/giu/06, alle ore 01:27, Nadish Naoroji ha scritto: > The download archive ECI_Offset_2004 contains the ICC profiles ISO > Coated, ISO Web Coated, ISO Uncoated and ISO Uncoated Yellowish. In > case you are not sure which ICC profile for offset printing to use, > it is recommended to use ISO Coated. > ====================================================================== > ==== > > I noted the above information on the ECI site. I found the ISO Web > Coated profile to have a Total Ink Limit of 300%. > > I found all the other profiles to have ink limits in the range 320% > to 350%. > > I don't believe an Uncoated stock can accept 350% ink. > > I am looking for an ISO profile with ink limit of around 260% for > use as a generic Newsprint profile. > > Is the data for the ISO Uncoated profile available? > > If so I could make a profile with required ink limit from this data. > > Thanks > > Nadish Naoroji, Multimatch Australia. > > _______________________________________________ > ECI-EN mailing list > ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 6 ************************************ -- Message protected by MailGuard: e-mail anti-virus, anti-spam and content filtering. http://www.mailguard.com.au/mg

17 years, 10 months

ISO Uncoated profile and ink limits

by Nadish Naoroji

The download archive ECI_Offset_2004 contains the ICC profiles ISO Coated, ISO Web Coated, ISO Uncoated and ISO Uncoated Yellowish. In case you are not sure which ICC profile for offset printing to use, it is recommended to use ISO Coated. ========================================================================== I noted the above information on the ECI site. I found the ISO Web Coated profile to have a Total Ink Limit of 300%. I found all the other profiles to have ink limits in the range 320% to 350%. I don't believe an Uncoated stock can accept 350% ink. I am looking for an ISO profile with ink limit of around 260% for use as a generic Newsprint profile. Is the data for the ISO Uncoated profile available? If so I could make a profile with required ink limit from this data. Thanks Nadish Naoroji, Multimatch Australia.

17 years, 10 months

Difference between profiles

by Jyrki Kela

Hello list Can you tell, what is difference between ISOcoated.icc (www.eci.org <http://www.eci.org> ) and Europe ISO Coated FOGRA27 profiles, which came with Adobe Photoshop CS2? It is said in ECI Offset 2004 document "ISOcoated.icc: Paper type 1 and 2, gloss- and matte-coated, 150 lpi (60/cm), FOGRA27L". Best Regards ------------------------------------------------ Jyrki Kela Quality and Technology Manager Erweko Painotuote Oy Valuraudantie 20, 00700 Helsinki Finland Tel. +358 9 7310 2319 Mobile +358 40 7 357 357 http://www.erweko.fi <blocked::http://www.erweko.fi/> ISO 9001:2000

17 years, 10 months

Software for Proofing QC

by Bill Birkett

Hello, list- I'm working with a print buyer to set up a system for monitoring the quality of proofs they receive from their outside prepress suppliers. We are considering use of the UGRA/FOGRA Media Wedge. What software is available to measure and analyze proofs? We'd like each vendor to maintain a run chart of their proofs, and be able to access measurements of a particular proof. We'd also like to attach some sort of verification printout to each proof. -Bill -- William B. Birkett - <wbirkett(a)doplganger.com> Print Quality Consultant Doppelganger, LLC - http://www.doplganger.com/ 48799 Meadow Drive, Plymouth, MI 48170 (USA) Office: (734) 927-4232 FAX: (734) 468-0580 Cell: (734) 516-4790

17 years, 10 months

scanoptimized maskless colornegative film ?

by ELOGANDO＠aol.com

subject: [ECI-EN] scanoptimized maskless colornegative film ? Dear listmembers, in my filmscannerlist http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coolscan8000-9000/ actually there is an interesting discussion on the possibility of designing a scan-optimized colornegative film without orange mask or the use of aerial maskless colornegative material for this purpose. What are the opinions of the specuialists in this list on this? Have look at a quote of the discussion. Thanks for a reply in advance. Very best, Ogando www.ogando.com --------------- edited quote, beginning with Ernst Dinkla (Netherlands): My idea is a color film that has no other task than being the first step in a analogue/digital workflow. With that more limited goal and the perfect digital control in the rest of the process it must be possible to incorporate many qualities of different film types in one film. It could be too late for that but even confectioned only in 120/220 roll film, 4x5 and up sheets there must be more than a niche market for it. http://www.photo.net/learn/orange-negative-mask Ernst .... Much of what we see in film scan problems is the dual task the color films have to perform, as a print film or as a projection film. .... full quote of the discussion: by Ernst Dinkla: The reason why I think the ideal scanner color film shouldn't be more compressed than the scanner's dynamic range needs. ....... Tonwertabrisse is often mentioned in connection with bad profiling as well. It wouldn't surprise me if the negative "profiles" and the mask compensation as used in Vuescan for example would cause that problem. Vuescan uses the green sensor at 2.5x exposure and the blue sensor at 3.5x exposure both to the red sensor, just to get rid of the mask. And adds a kind of "profile" for the different emulsions. Not really a nice solution to stretch the two channels that much. And we all know that that still doesn't take care of exposure + developing deviations. Another argument to make a dedicated scan color film. Much of what we see in film scan problems is the dual task the color films have to perform, as a print film or as a projection film. Even the analogue photographer with the drum scanner in his workflow would benefit from a slide film that had more latitude in the camera + compression in the film. At least the ones that have better than 8 bit A/D converters in their drum scanner, often not mentioned when they boast about the cheap secondhand drum scanner they got. Ernst -- ....... Raphael Bustin wrote: .... > > When I scan C41 -as positives- the analog gains look something like this: > > Master: +1.0 > Red: -0.3 > Green: +0.7 > Blue: +1.7 Rafe, That would be something like RGB 7:17:27 not far from 1:2.5:3.5 as used by Vuescan. BTW, I see that Agfa's Aviphot X100 PE1 is an aerial color film without mask. There is a faster version too. 70 mm perforated as the smallest size. C41 processing. They claim the better S/N ratio etc but with some loss in color fidelity (in direct printing I guess). http://www.agfa.com/docs/sp/aerial/aviphot_x400_2004-07-14_en.pdf Especially S/N in highlights while scanning is mentioned. http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00A0Jq Ernst , Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: >...Another argument to make a dedicated > scan color film. > Which Kodak have done: HD Color Scan Film 7299. Unfortunately it is only available in 16 mm at the moment. EK did produce a nother scan-only film a few years ago: Primetime 5620 640T. It was unprintable, unless you wanted a weird, muddy mess. It was intended for direct transfer to video. The colour could be taken care of during transfer. For the time it was a high speed film with comparatively low graininess. Unfortunately the radical nature of the film caused problems for colourists (the guys who transfer film to video) and it never really stood a chance. I was involved in the field tests in a small way, and made a short with it - entirely at f/1 and 16⅔ fps (that's 50/3: three fields per film frame at 25 fps PAL, slightly jerky). EK made sure that the transfer was a good one and I was happy with the result. Even by modern standards it was not grainy. Best, Helen -------------- filmdesigner69 wrote: -- In coolscan8000-9000(a)yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: > > BTW, I see that Agfa's Aviphot X100 PE1 is an aerial color > film without mask. There is a faster version too. 70 mm > perforated as the smallest size. C41 processing. They claim > the better S/N ratio etc but with some loss in color fidelity > (in direct printing I guess). The orange mask is the result of adding two or three colored masking couplers to the film formulation. These are designed to provide color correction (give truer colors) and are particularly useful in underexposure areas. At normal exposure and beyond, other chemicals that are not colored can provide a similar benefit. In either case, improvement in color reproduction will cause a reduction in S/N but can improve sharpness. In other words, better color is traded for worse granularity. Every film application requires a decision about how to make this trade. Hypothetically, a film could be designed with excellent S/N but poor color correction (no mask) with the intent of fixing the color at the photoediting stage. Whether the color can actually be improved while retaining the desirable S/N is open to question. I'm skeptic. --------- by Ernst Dinkla: filmdesigner69 wrote: > --- In coolscan8000-9000(a)yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla > <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: >> BTW, I see that Agfa's Aviphot X100 PE1 is an aerial color >> film without mask. There is a faster version too. 70 mm >> perforated as the smallest size. C41 processing. They claim >> the better S/N ratio etc but with some loss in color fidelity >> (in direct printing I guess). > > The orange mask is the result of adding two or three colored masking > couplers to the film formulation. These are designed to provide > color correction (give truer colors) and are particularly useful in > underexposure areas. At normal exposure and beyond, other chemicals > that are not colored can provide a similar benefit. In either case, > improvement in color reproduction will cause a reduction in S/N but > can improve sharpness. In other words, better color is traded for > worse granularity. Every film application requires a decision about > how to make this trade. > > Hypothetically, a film could be designed with excellent S/N but poor > color correction (no mask) with the intent of fixing the color at > the photoediting stage. Whether the color can actually be improved > while retaining the desirable S/N is open to question. I'm > skeptical. The purpose of the mask is to help control contrast and correct for deficiencies in green and red-sensitive layers when the negatives are printed. I'm not skeptical. I trust more selective CMY dyes in the film + RGB filters in the scanner and software solutions like good profiling much more than the addition of an extra filter to compensate the flaws of the CMY dyes. That extra filter is meant to be used for printing to color paper. The printing conditions are not based on the same light source as used in scanners either. It is a chemical/optical solution as couldn't be done otherwise in the strictly chemical/optical workflow it used to be. Based on the information of maskless films so far I see no evidence that the S/N ratio is worse or the grain coarser. Pushing the analogue gain of the GB channels 2.5 - 3.5 x in the scanners to compensate the mask goes along with noise increase so were is the gain? What is a sound solution in the analogue color printing workflow doesn't have to be the right one for a hybrid analogue-digital workflow. I do not think Agfa or Kodak R&D would go the route of maskless color film for scanning if they didn't expect advantages in that process. Where there might be a disadvantage is in the compression c.q. exposure latitude of the color film. There's however more contrast possible in the film with the dynamic range of latest scanners, flatbeds included. As long as it isn't approaching the contrast of slide film. If there's more of a shift in color fidelity in the underexposed parts this still could be solved by the right profiling. I'm not against an extra emulsion layer either like Fuji has done before. As long as it doesn't shift the overall balance too much. I have some books here on color separation techniques of slides to get the color right in printing with CMYK offset inks. Lots of film masks etc. That's the other way around at the end of process. Something we hardly think off now as that's all replaced by software/profiling that does a better job everywhere on inkjet printers than the best Swiss lithography shops could do 30 years ago. I'm not even fixed on color negative. My idea is a color film that has no other task than being the first step in a analogue/digital workflow. With that more limited goal and the perfect digital control in the rest of the process it must be possible to incorporate many qualities of different film types in one film. It could be too late for that but even confectioned only in 120/220 roll film, 4x5 and up sheets there must be more than a niche market for it. http://www.photo.net/learn/orange-negative-mask Ernst --

17 years, 10 months

Re: [ECI-EN] Software for Proofing QC

by Mr. Brumm, Ingmar / ColorPartner

Hi Bill, we cannot offer a complete solution for your concern, but with our free software ColorChart, you can measure directly into to Excel, where you have a big variety to work with the measured data. At the end of the scan ColorChart will execute an Excel macro, which could do an automatic printout, ... ColorChart supports the following instruments directly: - ColorPartner ColorScout S - GretagMacbeth Spectrolino - GretagMacbeth SpectroScan with Spectrolino and in combination with the XY measuring table ColorScout A+: - Byk-Gardner old micro tri gloss - Byk-Gardner micro haze plus and other - Byk-Gardner new micro tri gloss and other - Byk-Gardner color guide in different versions with sphere in/ex, 0/45, gloss - Byk-Gardner spectro guide - ColorPartner ColorScout S - ColorPartner ColorScout AX (high speed XY table with integrated spectrometer) - Datacolor Mercury - Elcometer: 2 thicknessmeters (on request) - Fischer Technology Dualscope MP40 (on request) - GretagMacbetch Spectrolino - GretagMacbetch EyeOne - GretagMacbetch SpectroEye - GretagMacbetch ColorEye (not yet) - Hunterlab MiniScan Plus XE (on request) - KonicaMinolta CM-2500c - KonicaMinolta CM-2500d - KonicaMinolta CM-2600d - RhoPoint: new glossmeters novo gloss (on request) - X-Rite SP60, SP61, SP62, SP64 - X-Rite 960, 962, 964, 939 - X-Rite 938, 948, 968 - X-Rite 504, 508, 518, 520, 528, 530 - X-Rite DTP20 - X-Rite MA series (not yet) Others can be adapted/connected on request. If you have any question, please feel free to contact us! Best regards, Ingmar Brumm - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ColorPartner GmbH, Holzkoppelweg 5, 24118 Kiel, Germany info(a)ColorPartner.de Tel: +49 431 200878 0 Fax: +49 431 200878 9 http://www.ColorPartner.de - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 14:28 02.06.2006, you wrote: >Hello, list- > >I'm working with a print buyer to set up a system for monitoring the >quality of proofs they receive from their outside prepress suppliers. We >are considering use of the UGRA/FOGRA Media Wedge. What software is >available to measure and analyze proofs? We'd like each vendor to maintain >a run chart of their proofs, and be able to access measurements of a >particular proof. We'd also like to attach some sort of verification >printout to each proof. > >-Bill >-- > >William B. Birkett - <wbirkett(a)doplganger.com> >Print Quality Consultant >Doppelganger, LLC - http://www.doplganger.com/ > >48799 Meadow Drive, Plymouth, MI 48170 (USA) >Office: (734) 927-4232 FAX: (734) 468-0580 >Cell: (734) 516-4790 >_______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com >http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

17 years, 10 months

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ECI-EN June 2006