December 2005 - ECI-EN - lists.callassoftware.com

RE: [ECI-EN] Re: ECI/bvbm Grey Control Strip (M) Fogra 27

by Marttila Jouni

Hello Paul It shouldn't be too difficult to make also 40% and 80% patches. I have myself made it so that I created 3-colour profiles from Fogra data, looked what Lab e.g. 40 black gives and then look from the 3-colour profile what CMY values this Lab-values of black correspond. And actually Eci/bvdm CMY 50% correspond to 45/36/33 for ISOcoated. If we would force cyan to stay 50% we would end up with something like C50%, M42%, Y37%, which would correspond to K56% I have already tested Eci/bvdm gray control strip and our own with same principle on test printing and it works very well. BR Jouni Marttila >-----Original Message----- >From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de >[mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Paul Sherfield >Sent: 22. joulukuuta 2005 19:50 >To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de >Subject: [ECI-EN] Re: ECI/bvbm Grey Control Strip (M) Fogra 27 > > > >Hi > >Is there ant English documentation on the use of this control strip? > >Also can I ask why the 50%, and 70% patches were chosen over >the 40% (quoted as 50% 40% 40%) and 80% which are highlighted >in the Altona documentation? > >And where can this chart be downloaded? > >Many thanks > >Paul Sherfield > > > >The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd > >Telephone: 01442 871752 >Mobile: 07899 906385 > >http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk > >Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing > > > >This email and any attachments may be confidential and are >intended solely for the use of addressee. If you are not the >intended recipient of this message, any disclosure, copying or >other distribution is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. >If you have received this message in error, please notify the >sender and delete all copies from your system. Email may be >susceptible to data corruption, interception and unauthorised >amendment. We do not accept liability for any such corruption, >interception or amendment or the consequences thereof. We do >not accept liability for any action or inaction by the >recipient as a result of advice or information contained >within this email. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci>-en >

18 years, 4 months

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UVI print question

by ip PSP

Well, one of my customers, it's going to print a test job with some images like the Altona test suit ones, some special color patches, an ECI 2002 color chart, but his question is: Witch are the standard densities to print with UVI inks on polypropylene and PVC medias?, is there any ISO applicable to the packaging sector?. Best regards. Leon B. Garcia PSP

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AW: AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)

Good morning Henk, >Do you have an updated list of print buyers insisting on the >certification of their prepress suppliers and printers? There is no "official list" of print buyers insisting on certification. But we know that for a great number of print buyers from all kind of industries certification according to ISO 12647-2 - PSO is now a prerequisite. For information on "ProzessStandard Offsetdruck" (PSO) and certification please see the www.psoinsider.de website (in german language only). http://www.psoinsider.de/Inhalt/Unternehmen/unternehmen.html Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards Karl Michael Meinecke Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm) Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden Fon +49(0)611 - 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 - 80 32 68 mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm.org ------------------------------------------------------ ATS | Altona Test Suite Application Kit www.altonatestsuite.com DPF | Digitalproof-Forum www.digitalproof-forum.de MSD | MedienStandard Druck www.bvdm.org/Aktuelles/Downloads.php GCS | ECI/bvdm Gray Control Strip www.bvdm-online.de/Aktuelles/Downloads.php bvdm-Publikationen recherchieren und bestellen http://www.point-online.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Henk Gianotten [mailto:henk@gianotten.com] Gesendet: Montag, 12. Dezember 2005 17:28 An: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de; 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' Betreff: Re: AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying At 12:22 12-12-2005 +0100, Karl Michael Meinecke wrote: >bvdm/fogra is offering certification in compliance with ISO 12647-2 >(ProzessStandard Offsetdruck). >The regional associations of our organization (vdm) and fogra are acting as >certiciers/co-certifiers. >Some 80+ companies in Germany are certified by now. Congratulations, That's a great result. Do you have an updated list of print buyers insisting on the certification of their prepress suppliers and printers? Regards, Henk Gianotten _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diese Mail wurde durch die TrendMicro Interscan VirusWall auf Viren gescannt.

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RE: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Henk Gianotten

At 11:14 12-12-2005 +0100, Guenter Bestmann wrote: >Hello, > >To get a first impression on certification in Germany please look to the >fogra website >and then to "certications" and "Process stand." > >Organizations like fogra or bvdm offer services to get a certification. >It is not a one time task, printers who are certified had to repeat the >process every year. > >Kind regards, >Guenter Hi Guenter, The existing document of Fogra mentions that the certification is valid for two years. Regards, Henk Gianotten Received: from mail2.feburman.co.uk (83-244-143-164.cust-83.exponential-e.net [83.244.143.164]) by lists.transmedia.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id PAA14048 for <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de>; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:36:18 +0100 Received: from [10.0.1.2] (spc1-norw3-4-0-cust124.asfd.broadband.ntl.com [81.108.129.124]) by mail2.feburman.co.uk (SGI-8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id jBCEl1DT8327675; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:47:01 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <A8F2DD0E-926F-4BD1-B2BB-8CEF03B197FA(a)metadesign.de> References: <OF5ADD07FB.D45BB362-ON862570CB.0042E0C1-862570CB.00433791(a)vertisinc.com> <A8F2DD0E-926F-4BD1-B2BB-8CEF03B197FA(a)metadesign.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <B1F4D827-1C71-44E9-BEC0-946133DB56BB(a)feburman.co.uk> From: Andy Psarianos <andy(a)feburman.co.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:36:26 +0000 To: Printing Across Borders <pab(a)lists.callassoftware.com>, eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de, wowg(a)lists.callassoftware.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lists.transmedia.de id PAA14048 Subject: [ECI-EN] Re: [pab] Re: Standard profiles for print, based on FOGRA data Sender: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de Errors-To: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de X-BeenThere: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta2 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de List-Id: European Color Initiative mailing list (English language) <eci-en.lists.transmedia.de> Dear all, First off I thank you all for your very useful responses to this post. The PPA supports and will continue to support international best practices. Therefore we believe that the current position of the PPA and the release of the PPA profile, must be clarified. A few relevant facts. a) proof4press is currently the PROOFING colour space in the UK magazine market. b) It works on a VISUAL basis. c) It has been around for a long time. (before the current ISO specs) d) UK printers and repro houses have worked to these proofs and proofing specs for a long time, are both comfortable and confident in them. What the new profile intends to achieve a) The profile to be released describes this PROOFING colour space, and the measurement data has been created from a proof b) It is being released as a temporary fix for a real-world problem Step forward. We recognise that the PPA needs to move it's proofing specifications to be more in line with internationally accepted printing standards, but it must be acknowledged that due to the overwhelming success of proof4press this is not easy. The current ISO specifications are not a VISUAL specification, they are a process control standard and do not explicitly describe what things look like! We know that we have much work to do and it is for this reason that we intend to invite several industry experts to help the PPA's pass4press committee address these issues over the coming year. Andy Psarianos, on behalf the PPA's pass4press committee On 5 Dec 2005, at 20:35, Florian S��l wrote: > Dear Andy, > Dear Steve and all, > > I totally agree with Steve's recommendation to wait until the > availability of the revised ISO aim values. Based on these values > we will get new characterization data (FOGRA39 following) and based > on these characterization data ECI will provide new Offset profiles > (version 2). > > As many printers reported problems with too high total ink > coverage, the new profiles definitely will be created with lower > TIC settings. > > According to today's schedule the new characterization data and > profiles should be available in about 6 month from now. > > Florian, > for ECI (responsible for the ECI Offset profiles) > Am 02.12.2005 um 13:14 schrieb Steve Smiley: > >> Howdy, >> >> By this note I am not endorsing the use of the ECI profiles. >> Before we jump into non- ISO standards, which I think will not be a >> unifying solution. Shouldn't we wait until the >> new FOGRA data sets are available with the correct RGB overprints, >> these >> are in the currently in the works. >> FOGRA 39 - I believe will be replacing FOGRAS27. >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> Steve Smiley | Director of Color Engineering | VERTIS | 2010 >> Westridge | >> Irving, TX 75038 >> T 972.373.4805 | F 373.714.4800 | C 214.263.9919 | >> ssmiley(a)vertisinc.com | >> http://vertisinc.com >> >> Vertis is the premier provider of targeted advertising, media, and >> marketing services that drive consumers to marketers more >> effectively. >> >> >> >> "Henk Gianotten" >> <henk(a)gianotten.c >> >> om> To >> "Printing Across Borders" >> 12/01/2005 08:15 <pab(a)lists.callassoftware.com> >> >> PM cc >> "Debrah Read" >> <Debrah_Read(a)ipcmedia.com>, >> >> <list_sc_color_management@ghentpdfw >> orkgroup.org>, >> >> <jonathan.moore(a)condenast.co.uk>, >> >> <kristoff.decroix(a)roularta.be>, >> >> <wowg(a)lists.callassoftware.com> >> >> Subject >> Standard profiles for >> print, based >> on Fogra data >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> At 17:08 1-12-2005 +0000, Paul wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> (snip) >>> >>> Elies suggest of using one of the ISO/FOGRA data sets, these are >>> feely >>> available, and making one from these data sets for the UK >>> magazine market >> is >>> sound, and would help in unifying standards, both on press and for >> proofing. >>> >>> This could be released as an FOGRA/PPA CMYK profile, and say >>> based on >>> dataset 27 would make the 'Proof for Press' standard much easier to >>> implement and control, and widen the range possible suppliers. >>> >>> Now may be the best time for the PPA to reflect and change >>> direction a >>> little (to ISO) with the 'Proof for Press' standard? >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Paul Sherfield >> >> Hi, >> I agree with the opinions of Elie, Paul and Robert. >> Adobe too, wanted to create different profiles for inclusion in >> Creative >> Suite and Acrobat. >> They took the Fogra characterization data sets and created new >> profiles >> with a shorter black >> for the printers and designers who don't (yet) want to use heavy >> GCR and >> long black plates. >> And not only profiles based on Fogra 27 and 30. >> Even the profiles based on Fogra 28 and 29 data are in preparation. >> Adobe took the right steps and did not use non-standardized >> characterization data. >> In their opinion the existing Fogra data sets are fine. >> Of course some printing companies use profiles different from >> ECI's and >> Adobes ISOcoated. >> But as long as they use the right starting point, they can >> modify what they want and create the plates their operators prefer. >> The suppliers of digital files and proofs have to use tools based >> on the >> same characterization data. >> That's, in my opinion, the best solution to optimize your work flow. >> As soon as your systems are able to deliver "printable" proofs >> (Fogra27, >> 28, 29, 30) you can slowly change your >> color separation criteria and modify the profiles. >> Based on the kind of images you reproduce. >> Based on the stability of your printing process, you can introduce >> the other profiles to separate more black and less color. >> And use the sophisticated tools to reduce your TAC. >> The result? A better process, a more stable process and less costs >> for ink. >> Which is (nowadays) more important than ever. >> >> Regards, >> Henk Gianotten >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pab mailing list >> pab(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/pab >> > > -- > Florian Suessl, Director Technology > > MetaDesign AG, Leibnizstrasse 65, 10629 Berlin > +49 30 59 00 54 246, fax +49 30 59 00 54 114 > fsuessl(a)metadesign.de, http://www.metadesign.de, www.metaprintcheck.de > > > _______________________________________________ > pab mailing list > pab(a)lists.callassoftware.com > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/pab

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Re: AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Henk Gianotten

At 12:22 12-12-2005 +0100, Karl Michael Meinecke wrote: >bvdm/fogra is offering certification in compliance with ISO 12647-2 >(ProzessStandard Offsetdruck). >The regional associations of our organization (vdm) and fogra are acting as >certiciers/co-certifiers. >Some 80+ companies in Germany are certified by now. Congratulations, That's a great result. Do you have an updated list of print buyers insisting on the certification of their prepress suppliers and printers? Regards, Henk Gianotten

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AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)

Hello, bvdm (vdm) are acting by definition in Germany. Fogra is acting by definition worldwide. Actual demand for certification is from Germany, some from Switzerland, Austria. Other european countries/organizations might adopt the concept. Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards Karl Michael Meinecke Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com] Gesendet: Montag, 12. Dezember 2005 12:53 An: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' Betreff: RE: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying Hello Is ISO 12647-2 certification going on mainly in Germany or do other institutes in other countries also do this? BR Jouni >-----Original Message----- >From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de >[mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of >Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm) >Sent: 12. joulukuuta 2005 13:23 >To: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' >Subject: AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying > > > >Hello Jouni, > >bvdm/fogra is offering certification in compliance with ISO >12647-2 (ProzessStandard Offsetdruck). The regional >associations of our organization (vdm) and fogra are acting as >certiciers/co-certifiers. Some 80+ companies in Germany are >certified by now. > >see www.fogra.org (services, certification, ProcessStand.) for details. > >Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards > >Karl Michael Meinecke >Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) > >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com] >Gesendet: Montag, 12. Dezember 2005 09:46 >An: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' >Betreff: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying > > >Hello > >You here companies saying that they are ISO 12647-2 certified. >What does that really mean and who is giving those certificates? > >If printer e.g. succeeds once printing according to ISO >12647-2 that does not mean that every print after that is >inside ISO 12647-2 tolerances automatically... > >Jouni Marttila >_______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci>-en > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------- > >Diese Mail wurde durch die TrendMicro Interscan VirusWall auf >Viren gescannt. _______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci>-en > _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diese Mail wurde durch die TrendMicro Interscan VirusWall auf Viren gescannt.

18 years, 4 months

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RE: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Marttila Jouni

Hello Is ISO 12647-2 certification going on mainly in Germany or do other institutes in other countries also do this? BR Jouni >-----Original Message----- >From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de >[mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of >Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm) >Sent: 12. joulukuuta 2005 13:23 >To: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' >Subject: AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying > > > >Hello Jouni, > >bvdm/fogra is offering certification in compliance with ISO >12647-2 (ProzessStandard Offsetdruck). The regional >associations of our organization (vdm) and fogra are acting as >certiciers/co-certifiers. Some 80+ companies in Germany are >certified by now. > >see www.fogra.org (services, certification, ProcessStand.) for details. > >Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards > >Karl Michael Meinecke >Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) > >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com] >Gesendet: Montag, 12. Dezember 2005 09:46 >An: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' >Betreff: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying > > >Hello > >You here companies saying that they are ISO 12647-2 certified. >What does that really mean and who is giving those certificates? > >If printer e.g. succeeds once printing according to ISO >12647-2 that does not mean that every print after that is >inside ISO 12647-2 tolerances automatically... > >Jouni Marttila >_______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci>-en > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------- > >Diese Mail wurde durch die TrendMicro Interscan VirusWall auf >Viren gescannt. _______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci>-en >

18 years, 4 months

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AW: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)

Hello Jouni, bvdm/fogra is offering certification in compliance with ISO 12647-2 (ProzessStandard Offsetdruck). The regional associations of our organization (vdm) and fogra are acting as certiciers/co-certifiers. Some 80+ companies in Germany are certified by now. see www.fogra.org (services, certification, ProcessStand.) for details. Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards Karl Michael Meinecke Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com] Gesendet: Montag, 12. Dezember 2005 09:46 An: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' Betreff: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying Hello You here companies saying that they are ISO 12647-2 certified. What does that really mean and who is giving those certificates? If printer e.g. succeeds once printing according to ISO 12647-2 that does not mean that every print after that is inside ISO 12647-2 tolerances automatically... Jouni Marttila _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diese Mail wurde durch die TrendMicro Interscan VirusWall auf Viren gescannt.

18 years, 4 months

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RE: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Bestmann, Guenter RD-PN32

Hello, To get a first impression on certification in Germany please look to the fogra website http://www.fogra.org/services-en/index_services.html and then to "certications" and "Process stand." Organizations like fogra or bvdm offer services to get a certification. It is not a one time task, printers who are certified had to repeat the process every year. Kind regards, Guenter Bestmann ______________________________ Dr. Guenter Bestmann Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG Research & Development Dr.-Hell-Straße D-24107 Kiel, Germany -----Original Message----- From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Marttila Jouni Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:46 AM To: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' Subject: [ECI-EN] ISO 12647-2 certifying Hello You here companies saying that they are ISO 12647-2 certified. What does that really mean and who is giving those certificates? If printer e.g. succeeds once printing according to ISO 12647-2 that does not mean that every print after that is inside ISO 12647-2 tolerances automatically... Jouni Marttila _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en Confidentiality note: The information in this email and any attachment may contain confidential and proprietary information of Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG and/or its affiliates and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited and may cause liability. In case you have received this message due to an error in transmission, we kindly ask you to notify the sender immediately and to delete this email and any attachment from your system.

18 years, 4 months

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ISO 12647-2 certifying

by Marttila Jouni

Hello You here companies saying that they are ISO 12647-2 certified. What does that really mean and who is giving those certificates? If printer e.g. succeeds once printing according to ISO 12647-2 that does not mean that every print after that is inside ISO 12647-2 tolerances automatically... Jouni Marttila

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ECI-EN December 2005