Re: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates
by Jani Vauhkonen - PunaMusta Oy
Hello Hanno and Juris
Hanno wrote a nice reply. I will check those targets values for
lamination from ECI-site, they could be usefull somehow...
About the customers, most of them understands and accepts the effect
on colors which the varnish causes. However it should be mentioned
beforehand.
--
Jani Vauhkonen, Finland
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com kirjoitti 12.4.2012 kello 13.00:
> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Varnish desaturates (Hanno Hoffstadt)
> 2. Re: Varnish desaturates (MichaelAbildgaard Pedersen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:16:43 +0200
> From: Hanno Hoffstadt <hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <1DD7CDFA-71B2-4D92-899C-E1A568087CBE(a)gmgcolor.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Juris,
>
> ISO 12647-1 states that a printing condition includes the
> specification of surface finishing (varnish or laminated film).
> Currently we do not have any reference printing conditions which
> include varnish or lamination in ISO.
>
> ISO 12647-1 also requires that additional CIELAB values must be
> specified for paper, solid inks, and CM, CY, MY secondaries after
> finishing.
> (I've never seen or heard of that done in practice.)
>
> ISO 12647-2 only notes that surface finishing will change the final
> color appearance, and later on suggests to use two proofs (before
> and after finishing) for critical jobs.
> This implies that target values for surface finishing must be
> different. So there are no ISO-standardized target values for any
> kind of surface finishing.
>
> I agree with Jani that one generally should not varnish the print
> control strip. This means printing to ISO standard and accept the
> changes due to surface finishing.
> There are exceptions where a compensation is possible, mainly with
> glossy aqueous dispersion varnish.
> Depending on the matte-ness of your varnish it is not possible to
> reach the ISO aim values for printing on coated paper with a stable
> printing process.
> You will likely have too much stray light from the surface which
> limits gamut and depth. E.g. your L* will be too high no matter how
> much solid black ink you are printing.
>
> However, for glossy and matte lamination there is a new set of ICC
> profiles and target values available on the ECI and Fogra web sites.
> This does not directly apply to varnish, but a document is included
> that contains useful information.
>
> Of course, customers do not want to be bothered with this, they
> deliver a FOGRA39 proof and leave the rest to you.
> Education is necessary to make them see that compensation is not
> always possible, and make them accept either the changes due to
> finishing, or to take finishing into account during separation and
> proofing.
>
> (It's easy to say this when there are no standards around for
> varnish. But if the demand is high enough, we (ECI) might consider
> publishing more specialized data sets and profiles.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Hanno
>
>
> Am 10.04.2012 um 11:19 schrieb Juris Valdmanis:
>
>> Hello Jani!
>>
>> Thanks for your reply.
>>
>> When coating is applied, AxisControl will try to get to ISO targets
>> as close as possible by opening/closing ink keys. The doubt are
>> that there is too much of ink under coating and printing so much
>> ink makes process very unstable. Also dot gain becomes very high.
>>
>> What does ISO says about coating? Does coated sheet should hit same
>> targets as uncoated? Even when coating makes inks less saturated?
>> What is your experience what do customers require?
>>
>> regards,
>> Juris
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jani Vauhkonen - PunaMusta Oy <jani.vauhkonen(a)punamusta.com
>> >
>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> Date: 2012.04.03 14:37
>> Subject: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates
>> Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Juris.
>>
>> I would suggest not print varnish on colorbar.
>> But if somebody has investicated different target values for
>> printing CMYK+varnish, it could be interesting to hear.
>> We have made some test.. If the desaturation could be compensated
>> by increasing density, color densities should be increased by
>> 8-11%. It might cause invalid tvi values, and that should be
>> compensated in prepress.
>> After all, the final result is not the same if you increase density
>> on varnish job vs leaving the varnish away.
>> Matt varnish desaturates, and that is what it is for.
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> Kind regards:
>> Jani Vauhkonen
>> Prepress manager
>>
>> PunaMusta Oy
>> PrePress division
>> P.O.Box 99, FIN-80141 Joensuu
>> Kosti Aaltosen tie 9, FIN-80140 Joensuu
>> Tel. +358 10 230 8481
>> jani.vauhkonen(a)punamusta.com
>> www.punamusta.com
>> -----------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
> Color Scientist
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kirchstrasse 5
> D-89081 Ulm
> Germany
> phone: +49(0)731 38900957
>
> GMG GmbH & Co. KG
> Moempelgarder Weg 10
> 72072 Tuebingen
> Germany
> Phone: +49 7071 93874-0
> Fax: +49 7071 93874-22
> mail to: hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com
> www.gmgcolor.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management
> software solutions with more than 11,000 systems in use among
> customers around the globe.
> These span a wide range of industries and application areas
> including advertising agencies, prepress houses, offset, flexo,
> packaging, digital, and large-format printers as well as
> international gravure printers.
>
> GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of
> Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRA 381463.
> General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen.
> Court of Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRB 382505.
> Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:29:40 +0100
> From: "MichaelAbildgaard Pedersen" <map(a)dgh.dk>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <fc.000f7f7700b9be4e3b9aca00327797fa.b9be4f(a)dgh.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Denne mailkonto er under afvikling og vil derfor ikke l?ngere blive
> l?st
> og besvaret.
> Min nye mail er: map(a)dmjx.dk
>
>
