Hi
Yes, I agree these Lab values for the papers listed are not correct. Lumisilk is
very close to the Type 1 paper figures from my readings, just a little higher in
the -b due to the brighters.
I am out of the office at present so have not got the figures to hand.
Paul Sherfield
By web mail
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
07899 906385
Quoting eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com:
> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> (Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm))
> 2. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization (Roger)
> 3. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3 (Lee Badham)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:20:15 +0200
> From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> Message-ID:
> <35F02B44B042DA4EBEE4B96DC2F9B67D9EA7(a)bvdm-exch-1.bvdm-online.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7"
>
> Ken,
>
> for comparison purposes, please indicate exact papers (stora 115gsm?) and
> complete, (standard compliant) settings of your SpectroEye measurements, such
> as
> Illuminant (D50/2), observer 45/0 0/45, pol. filter (no), UV-cut filter (no),
> backing (wb) etc.
>
> L* values seem to be very high, b* values rather low, compared to typical
> CIELAB data of type 1 papers.
>
> Best regards
> Karl Michael Meinecke
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of
> > Jones, Ken
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:20 AM
> > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast
> > majority of papers we use as a book publisher are not
> > matching the ISO12647-2 Type 1 paper colour target of L95 a0
> > b-2 (white backing) One one hand we are stating that we
> > require all our printers to now print to
> > FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different
> > papers which may or may not be matching the paper white for
> > that standard.
> >
> > Is this a case of double 'standards'?
> >
> > Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
> >
> > stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6 lumisilk 130gsm
> > - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm -
> > L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94
> > a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
> >
> > As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth
> > all these papers fail!
> >
> > I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on
> > press sheets which apparently has an allowance built in for
> > different paper colours. I'm told it will sample the paper
> > colour and then adjust the target colours slightly so we can
> > still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers that
> > stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to
> > get around this real life problem or actually going to
> > introduce different targets and therefore different final
> > colours depending on the paper used?
> >
> > Discuss :)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ken Jones
> > Technical Production Manager
> >
> > Penguin Group (UK)
> > 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
> > Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
> >
> >
> > > From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de>
> > > Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> > > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:47 +0200
> > > To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>, <homann(a)colormanagement.de>
> > > Conversation: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> > > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> > >
> > > Roger, all,
> > >
> > > allocation of papers to reference printing conditions
> > (recommendations
> > > of paper manufacturers) already exist.
> > >
> > > Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009
> > (order free
> > > of charge via website)
> > >
> > www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/
> Pages/pres
> > > s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
> > >
> > > The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
> > > Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO
> > and Gravure
> > > papers.
> > > L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers
> > are provided as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
> > > customers.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > > Karl Michael
> > >
> > > Karl Michael Meinecke
> > > Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
> > > German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
> > > Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
> > > Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68
> > > mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm-online.de
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > >> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
> > >> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de
> > >> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> > >>
> > >> Jan-Peter,
> > >>
> > >> How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the
> > >> information "which reference gamut should be applied to his
> > >> papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque!
> > >>
> > >> Roger
> > >>
> > >>> The paper supplier should provide the information which reference
> > >>> gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print
> > >>> buyers which are familiar with colormanagement.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards
> > >>> Jan-Peter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> ECI-EN mailing list
> > >> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > >> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ECI-EN mailing list
> > > ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >
> >
> >
> > This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc,
> > registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL.
> > Registered in England and Wales with company number 53723
> > _______________________________________________
> > ECI-EN mailing list
> > ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:44:01 -0400
> From: Roger <graxx(a)videotron.ca>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <009501c9f4da$36d534c0$a47f9e40$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Ken,
>
> I have a hard time with the exceptionally high L* values? The highest I ever
> seen was 96. But you have 99.94? Even if you measure on white backing, this
> is still too extreme. Is your SpectroEye photometric scale off? Even when I
> switch the UV filter on my SpectroEye, here, I can never get such super high
> L* readings.
>
> To come back to your discussion, I personally would not change the target
> colors to account for the various substrate properties. It's an idea worth
> discussing but I think it is the wrong approach. Otherwise, everyone is going
> to start to claim ISO conformance but we'll all have slightly different ink
> colors. To me, the solids and overprints CIE Lab values are absolute and
> should not be modified in any way, shape or form since, with the right inks,
> they are not that very difficult to come by, on a variety of PT1 variants.
> Matte papers are a different story...
>
> Best / Roger
>
> > stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
> > lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
> > sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
> > Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
> >
> > As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all these
> > papers
> > fail!
> >
> > I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
> > sheets
> > which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper colours.
> > I'm
> > told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target colours
> > slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers
> > that
> > stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get around
> > this
> > real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
> > therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
> >
> > Discuss :)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ken Jones
> > Technical Production Manager
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:11:54 +0100
> From: Lee Badham <lee.b(a)bodoni.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <D53704A1-381C-41E6-B578-94A0620C79F2(a)bodoni.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi,
>
> Looking at at those lab values, it seems that there is something
> wrong. You cannot get a reflective lab value with an L value greater
> than 100.
>
> So either:
> The spectroeye needs calibrating.
> You are using relative white Lab values
>
> I don't think changing the Illuminant, Angle, or Polarization would
> ever give those values.
>
> Lee Badham
>
> > Hi All
> >
> > I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast majority
> > of
> > papers we use as a book publisher are not matching the ISO12647-2
> > Type 1
> > paper colour target of L95 a0 b-2 (white backing)
> > One one hand we are stating that we require all our printers to now
> > print to
> > FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different papers
> > which
> > may or may not be matching the paper white for that standard.
> >
> > Is this a case of double 'standards'?
> >
> > Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
> >
> > stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
> > lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
> > sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
> > Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
> >
> > As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all
> > these papers
> > fail!
> >
> > I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
> > sheets
> > which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper
> > colours. I'm
> > told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target
> > colours
> > slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for
> > papers that
> > stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get
> > around this
> > real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
> > therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
> >
> > Discuss :)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ken Jones
> > Technical Production Manager
> >
> > Penguin Group (UK)
> > 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
> > Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
> >
>
>
> Bodoni Systems Ltd
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
> End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4
> *************************************
>
----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
Hi Ken
Your new figures are what I would expect from that range of papers. Few coated
or indeed uncoated paper match the ISO paper types. This is being addressed by
the ISO TC130 committee, but these things seem to that an age.
Re the BPIF/ISO certification scheme, we are not including paper, so regonising
the current position of papers with lots of brighters effecting the b channel.
They are some paper that are to or near to the standard, the Regency range,
Hello is close and Creator also is close.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
By web mail
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
07899 906385
Quoting "Jones, Ken" <ken.jones(a)uk.penguingroup.com>:
> I have now changed the setting on my SpectroEye to measure Absolute White
> (D50, 2º, no filters, white backing) and have now got a different set of
> figures. Are these more what you pros would expect?
> The Delta E is still too high in all cases!
>
> L93.49 a0.33 b-2.73 stora 115gsm DeltaE: 6.3
> L94.62 a0.9 b-4.74 lumisilk 130gsm DeltaE: 6.5
> L93.68 a1.43 b-4.71 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm DeltaE: 7.3
> L94.14 a0.2 b-2.96 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm DeltaE: 5.8
>
> Speaking from the print buyer / publishers point of view is there any way of
> getting LAB from paper manufacturers or better still a list of common papers
> that fall within the Type 1 or Type 2 tolerances?
>
> I ordered the StoreEnso fan (thanks for the tip) but it does not contain LAB
> values.
>
> Thanks
> Ken Jones
> Technical Production Manager
>
> Penguin Group (UK)
> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
> Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
>
>
> > From: Paul Sherfield <paul.sherfield(a)ukonline.co.uk>
> > Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>, <paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk>
> > Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:46:43 +0100
> > To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Yes, I agree these Lab values for the papers listed are not correct.
> Lumisilk
> > is
> > very close to the Type 1 paper figures from my readings, just a little
> higher
> > in
> > the -b due to the brighters.
> >
> > I am out of the office at present so have not got the figures to hand.
> >
> > Paul Sherfield
> > By web mail
> >
> > The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
> > 07899 906385
> >
> >
> > Quoting eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com:
> >
> >> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> >> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >> (Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm))
> >> 2. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization (Roger)
> >> 3. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3 (Lee Badham)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:20:15 +0200
> >> From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de>
> >> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <35F02B44B042DA4EBEE4B96DC2F9B67D9EA7(a)bvdm-exch-1.bvdm-online.de>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7"
> >>
> >> Ken,
> >>
> >> for comparison purposes, please indicate exact papers (stora 115gsm?) and
> >> complete, (standard compliant) settings of your SpectroEye measurements,
> such
> >> as
> >> Illuminant (D50/2), observer 45/0 0/45, pol. filter (no), UV-cut filter
> (no),
> >> backing (wb) etc.
> >>
> >> L* values seem to be very high, b* values rather low, compared to typical
> >> CIELAB data of type 1 papers.
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >> Karl Michael Meinecke
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of
> >>> Jones, Ken
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:20 AM
> >>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >>>
> >>> Hi All
> >>>
> >>> I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast
> >>> majority of papers we use as a book publisher are not
> >>> matching the ISO12647-2 Type 1 paper colour target of L95 a0
> >>> b-2 (white backing) One one hand we are stating that we
> >>> require all our printers to now print to
> >>> FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different
> >>> papers which may or may not be matching the paper white for
> >>> that standard.
> >>>
> >>> Is this a case of double 'standards'?
> >>>
> >>> Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
> >>>
> >>> stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6 lumisilk 130gsm
> >>> - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm -
> >>> L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94
> >>> a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
> >>>
> >>> As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth
> >>> all these papers fail!
> >>>
> >>> I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on
> >>> press sheets which apparently has an allowance built in for
> >>> different paper colours. I'm told it will sample the paper
> >>> colour and then adjust the target colours slightly so we can
> >>> still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers that
> >>> stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to
> >>> get around this real life problem or actually going to
> >>> introduce different targets and therefore different final
> >>> colours depending on the paper used?
> >>>
> >>> Discuss :)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Ken Jones
> >>> Technical Production Manager
> >>>
> >>> Penguin Group (UK)
> >>> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
> >>> Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de>
> >>>> Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> >>>> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:47 +0200
> >>>> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>, <homann(a)colormanagement.de>
> >>>> Conversation: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger, all,
> >>>>
> >>>> allocation of papers to reference printing conditions
> >>> (recommendations
> >>>> of paper manufacturers) already exist.
> >>>>
> >>>> Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009
> >>> (order free
> >>>> of charge via website)
> >>>>
> >>> www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/
> >> Pages/pres
> >>>> s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
> >>>>
> >>>> The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
> >>>> Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO
> >>> and Gravure
> >>>> papers.
> >>>> L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers
> >>> are provided as
> >>>> well.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
> >>>> customers.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards
> >>>> Karl Michael
> >>>>
> >>>> Karl Michael Meinecke
> >>>> Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
> >>>> German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
> >>>> Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
> >>>> Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68
> >>>> mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm-online.de
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>>>> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
> >>>>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jan-Peter,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the
> >>>>> information "which reference gamut should be applied to his
> >>>>> papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The paper supplier should provide the information which reference
> >>>>>> gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print
> >>>>>> buyers which are familiar with colormanagement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best regards
> >>>>>> Jan-Peter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> ECI-EN mailing list
> >>>>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>>>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> ECI-EN mailing list
> >>>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc,
> >>> registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL.
> >>> Registered in England and Wales with company number 53723
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> ECI-EN mailing list
> >>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:44:01 -0400
> >> From: Roger <graxx(a)videotron.ca>
> >> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> >> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >> Message-ID: <009501c9f4da$36d534c0$a47f9e40$@ca>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >>
> >> Ken,
> >>
> >> I have a hard time with the exceptionally high L* values? The highest I
> ever
> >> seen was 96. But you have 99.94? Even if you measure on white backing,
> this
> >> is still too extreme. Is your SpectroEye photometric scale off? Even when
> I
> >> switch the UV filter on my SpectroEye, here, I can never get such super
> high
> >> L* readings.
> >>
> >> To come back to your discussion, I personally would not change the target
> >> colors to account for the various substrate properties. It's an idea
> worth
> >> discussing but I think it is the wrong approach. Otherwise, everyone is
> going
> >> to start to claim ISO conformance but we'll all have slightly different
> ink
> >> colors. To me, the solids and overprints CIE Lab values are absolute and
> >> should not be modified in any way, shape or form since, with the right
> inks,
> >> they are not that very difficult to come by, on a variety of PT1
> variants.
> >> Matte papers are a different story...
> >>
> >> Best / Roger
> >>
> >>> stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
> >>> lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
> >>> sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
> >>> Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
> >>>
> >>> As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all these
> >>> papers
> >>> fail!
> >>>
> >>> I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
> >>> sheets
> >>> which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper colours.
> >>> I'm
> >>> told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target colours
> >>> slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers
> >>> that
> >>> stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get around
> >>> this
> >>> real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
> >>> therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
> >>>
> >>> Discuss :)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Ken Jones
> >>> Technical Production Manager
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:11:54 +0100
> >> From: Lee Badham <lee.b(a)bodoni.co.uk>
> >> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3
> >> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >> Message-ID: <D53704A1-381C-41E6-B578-94A0620C79F2(a)bodoni.co.uk>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Looking at at those lab values, it seems that there is something
> >> wrong. You cannot get a reflective lab value with an L value greater
> >> than 100.
> >>
> >> So either:
> >> The spectroeye needs calibrating.
> >> You are using relative white Lab values
> >>
> >> I don't think changing the Illuminant, Angle, or Polarization would
> >> ever give those values.
> >>
> >> Lee Badham
> >>
> >>> Hi All
> >>>
> >>> I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast majority
> >>> of
> >>> papers we use as a book publisher are not matching the ISO12647-2
> >>> Type 1
> >>> paper colour target of L95 a0 b-2 (white backing)
> >>> One one hand we are stating that we require all our printers to now
> >>> print to
> >>> FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different papers
> >>> which
> >>> may or may not be matching the paper white for that standard.
> >>>
> >>> Is this a case of double 'standards'?
> >>>
> >>> Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
> >>>
> >>> stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
> >>> lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
> >>> sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
> >>> Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
> >>>
> >>> As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all
> >>> these papers
> >>> fail!
> >>>
> >>> I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
> >>> sheets
> >>> which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper
> >>> colours. I'm
> >>> told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target
> >>> colours
> >>> slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for
> >>> papers that
> >>> stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get
> >>> around this
> >>> real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
> >>> therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
> >>>
> >>> Discuss :)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Ken Jones
> >>> Technical Production Manager
> >>>
> >>> Penguin Group (UK)
> >>> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
> >>> Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bodoni Systems Ltd
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> ECI-EN mailing list
> >> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >>
> >> End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4
> >> *************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > ECI-EN mailing list
> > ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>
----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
Hello list,
sorry for posting my e-mail about SC / MFC a second time. This was not
intended.
...
Thanks Paul and Roger for the reply.
If we are looking at current paper categorization delivered by the paper
suppliers, this paper categorization is based on how are the papers
produced and may which paperwhite they have.
The same direction is at ISO 12647-2 (coated, LWC, uncoated...). The PSO
introduces more additional papertypes also categorized , on how the
papers are produced. (SC, MFC...)
If we reach (with the same printing technology - e.g. heatset) on
different papers the same gamut / paperwhite, I don´t think it makes
sense to create different characterization-data / ICC profiles.
From my point of view, a future print standardization (ISO 12647-, PSO
G7...) should concentrate on a handful reference gamuts.
The paper supplier should provide the information which reference gamut
should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print buyers
which are familiar with colormanagement.
This would allow both print buyer an printer to agree in advance on a
handful of standard references and profiles for the prepress workflow.
On of my heatset customers is currently preparing to put the information
about reference printing condition / reference profiles into his MIS
(Management Information System). This would allow, that every offer to a
customer will include automatically the necessary informations for the
proofing standard / separation profile / PDF/X output intent based on
the choosen papertypy.
In the first try the printer made a list with
- FOGRA40 / SC_paper_eci.icc for all SC-papers
- FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_paper_eci.icc for all MFC papers
Now we are switching all white SC papers also to FOGRA41 /
PSO_MFC_paper_eci.icc an will use a description like:
"separation, PDF/X data delivery and proofing for MFC and white
SC-papers according FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_paper_eci.icc"
Best regards
Jan-Peter
--
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
Hi,
Looking at at those lab values, it seems that there is something
wrong. You cannot get a reflective lab value with an L value greater
than 100.
So either:
The spectroeye needs calibrating.
You are using relative white Lab values
I don't think changing the Illuminant, Angle, or Polarization would
ever give those values.
Lee Badham
> Hi All
>
> I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast majority
> of
> papers we use as a book publisher are not matching the ISO12647-2
> Type 1
> paper colour target of L95 a0 b-2 (white backing)
> One one hand we are stating that we require all our printers to now
> print to
> FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different papers
> which
> may or may not be matching the paper white for that standard.
>
> Is this a case of double 'standards'?
>
> Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
>
> stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
> lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
> sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
> Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
>
> As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all
> these papers
> fail!
>
> I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
> sheets
> which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper
> colours. I'm
> told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target
> colours
> slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for
> papers that
> stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get
> around this
> real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
> therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
>
> Discuss :)
>
> Thanks
> Ken Jones
> Technical Production Manager
>
> Penguin Group (UK)
> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
> Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
>
Bodoni Systems Ltd
Hello list,
I have customers creating data for heatset printing and also heatset
printers producing on white SC-paper according guidelines ISO 12647 /
PSO / MediaStandard Print.
The reference FOGRA40 / SC_paper_eci.icc represents a yellowish
paperstock which do not fit white SC-papers.
For doing prepress work and proofing, data creators and printer could
either agree
1) on a inhouse standard based on an edited SC_paper_eci.icc profile,
2) or they could use FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_Paper_eci.icc instead.
I currently recommend to my customers solution 2 because:
- The gamut of FOGRA40 and FOGRA41 are quite comparable, but the
whitepoint of FOGRA41 fits better the whitepoint of white SC-papers
- FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_Paper_eci is an international reference, which could
easily implemented by different prepress-data creators and printers. An
edited SC_paper_eci.icc profile is always an inhouse standard
- FOGRA41 is out of the box integrated in solutions for proofing and
proof control, an edited SC_paper_eci.icc profile not.
- The separation-table of the PSO_MFC_Paper_eci profile reflects the
white-point of the standard. If the profile SC_paper_eci will be edited
for a cooler whitepoint, this will not change the separation-table still
reflecting the yellowish paperwhite of this reference.
My question:
Is there anybody out there, who agrees or disagrees for using FOGRA41 /
PSO_MFC_Paper_eci as reference for white SC papers in heatset printing ?
Regards
Jan-Peter
--
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
I will be out of the office starting 06/20/2009 and will not return until
06/29/2009.
I will be out of the office starting June 20, 2009 and will return June 29,
2009. I will respond to your message when I return.
If you require immediate assistance please contact Peter Hwang at (973)
882-2053
HI Jan-Peter
I have seed this issue with the Fogra 41 SC profile based on a 'yellow'
white paper point that does not reflect the SC papers available.
I have taken your first option of editing the white paper point in the SC
profile the solve this issue.
I have not thought of looking at the Fogra 41 based profiles for SC papers.
Looks as if may be a good idea.
Many thanks
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
P Save Paper - Do you really need to print this e-mail?
http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards)
Member - BPIF Technical Standards Committee
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contained within this email.
Hello list,
I have customers creating data for heatset printing and also heatset
printers producing on white SC-paper according guidelines ISO 12647 /
PSO / MediaStandard Print.
The reference FOGRA40 / SC_paper_eci.icc represents a yellowish
paperstock which do not fit white SC-papers.
For doing prepress work and proofing, data creators and printer could
either agree
1) on a inhouse standard based on an edited SC_paper_eci.icc profile,
2) or they could use FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_Paper_eci.icc instead.
I currently recommend to my customers solution 2 because:
- The gamut of FOGRA40 and FOGRA41 are quite comparable, but the
whitepoint of FOGRA41 fits better the whitepoint of white SC-papers
- FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_Paper_eci is an international reference, which could
easily implemented by different prepress-data creators and printers. An
edited SC_paper_eci.icc profile is always an inhouse standard
- FOGRA41 is out of the box integrated in solutions for proofing and
proof control, an edited SC_paper_eci.icc profile not.
- The separation-table of the PSO_MFC_Paper_eci profile reflects the
white-point of the standard. If the profile SC_paper_eci will be edited
for a cooler whitepoint, this will not change the separation-table still
reflecting the yellowish paperwhite of this reference.
My question:
Is there anybody out there, who agrees or disagrees for using FOGRA41 /
PSO_MFC_Paper_eci as reference for white SC papers in heatset printing ?
Regards
Jan-Peter
--
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
