Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 82, Issue 7
by Pal Bekesy
Hi Folks,
I've done some tests earlier about gloss laminating. Based on these, the
reason for color shift is twofold:
1. The adhesive and the foil provide an effect optically as a "wet stone",
that is, as a planparalel plate. (For thermal foils, the glue is almost
exclusively causes the color shift effect, using matte foil the "culprit"
is the foil.) The colors become more saturated and darker.
2. Saturated and darker colors also cause optical Dot gain. And it is very
important, for lower TV we always get bigger TVI, because the paper color
will be changed also. This is the reason we never get the same effect on
proofs. The proof use different screening. This a very important isue.
Both problems can be eliminated by decreasing density, on the one hand
reducing TVI. Matt foil typically lightens the black, and can compensated
for it by increasing density. The question is always whether we want to
compensate these effects or not? The answer is always we do not want to
change the color shift.
Regards,
Pal Bekesy
Hungary
2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com>:
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> 1. Re: Question about velvet lamination (LYAUDET, Herve)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 19:20:55 +0900
> From: "LYAUDET, Herve" <h.lyaudet(a)altavia-paris.com>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID:
> <CA+1uu_aEtsL1QHcuv+nroVD8sqnWLj0ekFGUKZbam-AOMS3_
> og(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> *Hello everyone,*
>
> I appreciate your time and attention, your answers are very important for
> me.
> Velvet seems to be a less matte stratification that F49. But the result
> seems to be very low reflectance and does make the colour lighter and a
> touch yellower.
>
> *'The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
> have access to such equipment.*
>
> *Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
> laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation
> on your proofer, laminate and measure). *
>
> *Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get
> the same optical effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color
> shift is additional optical dot gain which depends on the screen.'*
>
> Thanks for the tip :) If I'm lucky, maybe I could do a press test and
> laminate.
>
> *Gentlemen, thank you very much.*
>
> *Best regards.*
>
> Herv?
>
> 2018-02-27 4:23 GMT+09:00 Nick Burton <nick.burton(a)magharl.co.uk>:
>
> > Hi all
> >
> > I am wondering if ?velvet? refers to what is normally stated as a soft
> > touch varnish this normally should be having very low reflectance and
> does
> > make the colour lighter and a touch yellower.
> >
> > For spot colours we normally give printers pre and post values to help
> mix
> > the ink where as with process we ask to see sheets unvarnished and check
> to
> > 12647 as I don?t believe a standard has been created for this kind of
> work
> > yet.
> >
> > Would be interesting to hear any other opinions or whether this is
> > something of an ISO consideration.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 17:43, Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm) <dk(a)bvdm-online.de
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Salut Herv?,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> additionally to Hanno?s answer: A prerequisite of use of the profile
> >> ?PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc? (seems to be the right
> choice
> >> for velvet) is a tone value increase 10% higher compared to Fogra39.
> That
> >> means, in the 40% tone you should set an increase value of 13% + 10% =
> 23%
> >> for CMY and of 16% + 10% = 26% for K. I don?t know the effects of
> ?velvet?
> >> but I think you should not go beyond 10%+ because that increase is a
> >> compensation of the light refraction in the film layer depending on its
> >> typical thickness. This is only a rough rule of thumb, and for glossy
> >> laminate you can work with the same curves.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Dieter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Von:* eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:
> >> eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Hanno
> Hoffstadt
> >> *Gesendet:* Montag, 26. Februar 2018 09:40
> >> *An:* eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >> *Betreff:* Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Herv?,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am not familiar with "velvet films" as a term. Are they very silky,
> >> matte (fuzzy) and at the same time with a wide "glossy sheen" which
> >> captures much of the ambient light, but directional? So that intensity
> >> changes with orientation?
> >>
> >> This is what I assume for the following...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is a difficult case for proofing. The characterization data are for
> >> 45/0 geometry, but the viewing is more like diffuse illumination with an
> >> overall direction, which in this case can make a big difference.
> >>
> >> It may help to get the viewing closer to a 45/0 or 0/45 situation by
> >> blocking much of the other diffuse ambient light. Then a print-to-proof
> >> match which measures close to 0 Delta E will also appear close.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> F49 is probably a bit too light in the shadows, you may see more
> contrast
> >> on the laminated print. But it should get the color shift approximately
> >> right if your screen is around 150-180 lpi.
> >>
> >> (F49 and F50 are not well suited for extremely fine or coarse or NP/FM
> >> screens, where the color shifts will be smaller.)
> >>
> >> But this is only the colorimetric part of the story... without the
> >> surface properties.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no proofing substrate which matches the surface of matte and
> >> silky lamination well.
> >>
> >> The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
> >> have access to such equipment.
> >>
> >> Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
> >> laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear
> transformation
> >> on your proofer, laminate and measure).
> >>
> >> Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to
> get
> >> the same optical effect and color shift as on the print - much of the
> color
> >> shift is additional optical dot gain which depends on the screen.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> Hanno
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
> >> Senior Color Scientist
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
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> >> D-89077 Ulm
> >> Germany
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
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> >> www.gmgcolor.com
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >> Am 26.02.2018 um 03:09 schrieb LYAUDET, Herve <
> >> h.lyaudet(a)altavia-paris.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Hello everyone,*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the
> ECI
> >> members can help me ?
> >>
> >> Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet
> lamination?
> >>
> >> ..Velvet lamination is very specific..
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Best regards.*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Herv?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> *Herve LYAUDET*
> >>
> >> Responsable colorim?trie et flux de production
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
> >> www.altaviawatch.com
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> > --
> > Nick Burton Print Quality Manager DDI 01895 432 460 ? Main 01895 432 400
> ?
> > nick.burton(a)magharl.co.uk
> >
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> --
> Herve LYAUDET
> Responsable colorim?trie et flux de production
>
> ALTAVIA PARIS
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