Dear all, after so many year of building "Fogra standards" we all know that each printing condition is quite a challenge and easily needs 1/2 to 1 year. The required resources are huge (in particular for web based printing). On the other hand I need to say that any industry gets the standard they deserve. What I am saying is, that without explicit way of financing the key contributors it remains subject for those people magic time. And you know they have plenty of them. It sounds a little direct and disillusioning but that is how I see the current situation. That means you either find a group of interested parties that collect some money (as the FOGRA54 LWV B printer do right now) - including to accept that other not paying competitors will later benefit from it - or you need to live with individual retargeting transforms (where I need to say that the color server are really powerful today). regards Andy​ Kraushaar ________________________________ Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com &lt;eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt; im Auftrag von Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm) &lt;dk(a)bvdm-online.de&gt; Gesendet: Montag, 6. Februar 2017 16:48 An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Dear Axel, of course, my answer was only a pragmatical suggestion in order to bridge the time gap until ECI will be able to provide new “v3 laminate profiles”. And of course you are right, it cannot be the task of the printers to calculate such special profiles or to carry out TVI experiments. ☺ Best regards, Dieter Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Axel Robert Gesendet: Montag, 6. Februar 2017 15:53 An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Dear Dieter, I am afraid that most of our printer would not be able to change anything in their own process; especially with the curves adaptation in their own RIP. This is, alas, what I too often hear around me. And I also think it’s not devoted to the ordering customer to do this job. ☺ That is why I would like so much an ECI update. Anyhow, many thanks for your clever and clear answer. Regards. Axel From: <eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> on behalf of "Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm)" <dk@bvdm-online.de<mailto:dk@bvdm-online.de>> Reply-To: "eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>" <eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>> Date: lundi 6 février 2017 11:39 To: "eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>" <eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Dear Axel, the need to create “v3 laminate profiles” may depend on the common progress in switching to F51 (and F52). Apart from colorimetric differences, the main difference between F39 and F49/F50 is the epic reduction of TVIs: F39 --> F49/F50 requires [curve A (40 % + 13 % = 53 % in CMY patches) and curve B (40 % + 16 % = 56 % in K patch)] –10 % = 43 % (CMY) and 46 % (K) by application of film. (Furthermore: –5…7 % by application of UV coat, –2…4 % by application of dispersion coat.) If you already switched to the new printing conditions with all their changes in M1 measuring mode and D50 lighting, you could try to apply the TVI reductions to the F51 profile: F51 by application of film would require curve A (40 % + 15,3 % = 55,3 % in CMYK patches)] –10 % = 45,3 % in the 40 % CMYK patches. It’s not trivial but worth to find out how good the harmonized TVI curves would work with films. Best regards, Dieter Dieter Kleeberg Referent Technik + Forschung [id:image001.png@01D0CED7.BA383280] Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm) Friedrichstraße 194–199 D-10117 Berlin Telefon +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-164 Mobil +49 (0) 160 / 65 184 60 Telefax +49 (0) 30 / 20 91 39-113 Email: dk@bvdm-online.de<mailto:dk@bvdm-online.de> Internet: www.bvdm-online.de<http://www.bvdm-online.de/> Folgen Sie uns auf Twitter: http://twitter.com/Der_bvdm Jetzt vormerken / Jetzt anmelden: 15. – 16. Feb. 2017 Digitaldruck-Kongress 2017<http://www.bvdm-online.de/service/veranstaltungen/digitaldruck-kongress-2017/> Publikationen: www.bvdm-online.de/shop/<http://www.bvdm-online.de/shop/> ProzessStandard Offsetdruck www.prozess-standard.com<http://www.prozess-standard.com/> PSO ProcessStandard Offset ISO 12647 www.pso-insider.de<http://www.pso-insider.de/> R16 roman16 bvdm Reference Images www.roman16.com<http://www.roman16.com/> CO2 Klimainitiative bvdm - Climate initiative www.klima-druck.de<http://www.klima-druck.de/> MSD MedienStandard Druck www.bvdm-online.de/fileadmin/tundf/bvdm_Medienstandard_Druck_2016.pdf<ht… Von: eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Axel Robert Gesendet: Montag, 6. Februar 2017 09:12 An: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> Betreff: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Wichtigkeit: Hoch Dear all, I would like to obtain more information about the following ICC profiles: PSO_Coated_v2_300_Glossy_laminate_eci.icc PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc I partially switched from F39 to F51 and F47 to F52. But I still use the former (aka F49 and F50). Should I take into account they also will change since the new printing conditions? Are they still relevant? Or should they be adapted? And if so, when or how? Thank you for your answer. Regards. Axel Axel Robert | Prepress Manager Ubisoft EMEA |Manufacturing 28, rue Armand Carrel | 93100 Montreuil | France Tel: +33(0)1 48 18 52 03 | Skype: axelprepress

Hi Axel, hi everyone else on this list, while nobody can be an owner of all the standards that matter to him/her, it is ultimately everybody's own choice whether to become an owner of a certain standard or a driver for the work for and around a standard. Standards are made by ordinary people (who are hardly ever being paid for making standards - rather the opposite: in Germany we have to pay annual fees - on a per person/per committee basis - to be allowed to participate in national and international standardization work) . While it is true there has been (less and less) government and similar funding for some organizations, and while some leading manufacturers have contributed significantly in the past (and continue to do so), each and every bit of what the group of ECI, Fogra, bdvm, Ifra and Ugra have developed in the last 20 or so years is a mix of contributions also from many 'smaller players' (smaller printing houses, media service providers, ...), all the way down to freelance professionals. In many cases people have mostly invested their personal / private time - quite a few contributors who are employees do their work 'on the side'/as a hobby, and the same is true for freelancers. The ultimate question is: do you care enough (or do you feel enough pain) to get involved and help take next steps, or not? If there is not enough pain, let's wait until it gets bigger... (or goes away?) ;-) Maybe one day someone looking for improvements/further developments around the standards he/she uses will ask: What is needed to get there? How can I help? Olaf

Hi Axel I don't think anybody was offended! I just wanted to point out that everybody - including a 'little prepress manager' - has the freedom to decide where to invest his/her resources.This does not mean that it **has to be you** who should invest in the development of the requested new profiles. But it could be you... (or just about anybody else in the industry). Olaf

Hi Axel, all, let me all clarify the financing of Fogra since I often hear this kind of "they benefit from a socialism kinda government funding" :-) First we are financed by members and therefore need to stay competitive to keep them and gain more. At the end we have members from the entire food chain (supplier (not the majority), print service providers, repro houses, consultants, print buyers). And that by the way ensures our neutrality ("He who pays the piper, calls the tune.")! Then we apply for research grants on a project by project basis and only get funding if it is scientifically and economical sophisticated (focussing on the contribution of >30 small and medium companies that we need to convince to support that project). Tomorrow for instance the industry interesting in digital printing is meeting in Munich (Agenda, Login for remote access etc: https://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-research/wc-digital-printing/technical-commi…) Here we expect more than 30 attendees (+ remote attendees) from worldwide to discuss the ongoing projects and in particular the new projects. So we provide a platform where the industry can come and say: "Please ask for tax money to solve my problem XXX" to put it very straight. As anyone knows research is never beneficial, we have to do some normal commercial activities to achieve the black zero (such as seminars, control strips, certifications, symposiums etc). So join tomorrow and learn how you can contribute! regards Andy​ Kraushaar ________________________________ Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com &lt;eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt; im Auftrag von Karl Michael Meinecke &lt;KarlMichael.Meinecke(a)online.de&gt; Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Februar 2017 13:41 An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Dear Axel, all, Olaf’s point is most important. Only sustainable co-operation, support and contribution of industry experts provides new standards, applications, profiles. Including the participation of users, printing and prepress companies – supported by their associations. This worked for many years: Great efforts of a small number of individuals and companies for the benefit of the industry on international level. I also want to clarify the misunderstanding with respect to the funding of bvdm. There is no public funding of bvdm and it‘s regional associacions vdm. The associacions are funded only via membership fees. Second, revenues from activities such as additional consulting sevices and training activities offered to the industry (users, member companies). Members of the associations (vdm) are german printing companies, prepress and postpress companies – the users in the industry. Bvdm/vdm is the german employers association of the printing and media industries (like UNIIC in France www.com-unic.fr<http://www.com-unic.fr>)r>). The membership is voluntarily. Many companies are not member of the associacion (vdm) – but are taking advantage of the benefits anyway. This includes e.g. development of professional training, job profiles, curriculae; development and support of standards, technical solutions; economic support and representation (industry policy, regulations, taxes on national and european level). The manufacturers of machinery, materials and systems are not funding bvdm/vdm either. They are running their own associacions such as vdma (machinery), vdp (paper), VdL (printing ink). In many cases the manufacturers – as suppliers of the printing industry (users) – have different positions e.g. with respect to quality and performance of delivered goods and services. This is in some cases subject of negotiations between bvdm and supplier associacions (agreements or recommendations) – e.g. the terms for the commissioning of printing presses, prepress and postpress equipment (guidelines, technical criteria, testing procedures). However, bvdm/vdm and manufacturers associations are co-operating on many topics, e.g. the support and further development of print media, on national and international level. Examples are www.fr.twosides.info/<http://www.fr.twosides.info/> www.printpower.eu/<http://www.printpower.eu/> Probably the most important area of co-operation between bvdm/vdm, manufacturers and other organisations (ECI, Fogra) is the development of technical standards and applications, see above. This is established for many years and the prerequisite for a successful development of technical quality industry standards and application tools (bvdm/ECI/Fogra …). Best Regards Karl Michael (senior consultant at bvdm 1980-2016) *** Karl Michael Meinecke E-Mail: karlmichael.meinecke@online.de<mailto:karlmichael.meinecke@online.de> Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Olaf Drümmer Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Februar 2017 12:05 An: Mailing List [ECI-EN] Cc: Olaf Drümmer Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Hi Axel I don't think anybody was offended! I just wanted to point out that everybody - including a 'little prepress manager' - has the freedom to decide where to invest his/her resources.This does not mean that it **has to be you** who should invest in the development of the requested new profiles. But it could be you... (or just about anybody else in the industry). Olaf On 07 Feb 2017, at 11:52, Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com<mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>> wrote: Hello Olaf, Apologize I have offended anyone here. It was of course not the goal at all. Nevertheless, I also paid in the past for the French ISO (aka CNTCG) in order to move things forward. I was the only big customer and almost no printer was involved too. So, I know how it could be difficult in term of personal investment. The fact is, I’m afraid not to be clever and brilliant enough, to technically participate to the elaboration of this. I don’t have your skills. At the risk of repeating myself, I’m just a little prepress manager. ☺ Regards. Axel From: <eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> on behalf of Olaf Drümmer <olaflist@callassoftware.com<mailto:olaflist@callassoftware.com>> Reply-To: "eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>" <eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>> Date: mardi 7 février 2017 11:03 To: "Mailing List [ECI-EN]" <eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>> Cc: Olaf Drümmer <olaflist@callassoftware.com<mailto:olaflist@callassoftware.com>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] eci offset profiles surface finished. Hi Axel, hi everyone else on this list, On 07 Feb 2017, at 10:22, Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com<mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>> wrote: But firstly, we are followers, not owners of the new standards. while nobody can be an owner of all the standards that matter to him/her, it is ultimately everybody's own choice whether to become an owner of a certain standard or a driver for the work for and around a standard. Standards are made by ordinary people (who are hardly ever being paid for making standards - rather the opposite: in Germany we have to pay annual fees - on a per person/per committee basis - to be allowed to participate in national and international standardization work) . While it is true there has been (less and less) government and similar funding for some organizations, and while some leading manufacturers have contributed significantly in the past (and continue to do so), each and every bit of what the group of ECI, Fogra, bdvm, Ifra and Ugra have developed in the last 20 or so years is a mix of contributions also from many 'smaller players' (smaller printing houses, media service providers, ...), all the way down to freelance professionals. In many cases people have mostly invested their personal / private time - quite a few contributors who are employees do their work 'on the side'/as a hobby, and the same is true for freelancers. The ultimate question is: do you care enough (or do you feel enough pain) to get involved and help take next steps, or not? If there is not enough pain, let's wait until it gets bigger... (or goes away?) ;-) Maybe one day someone looking for improvements/further developments around the standards he/she uses will ask: What is needed to get there? How can I help? Olaf _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en