July 2005 - ECI-EN - lists.callassoftware.com

by ip PSP

Well, one of my customers, it's going to print a test job with some images like the Altona test suit ones, some special color patches, an ECI 2002 color chart, but his question is: Witch are the standard densities to print with UVI inks on polypropylene and PVC medias?, is there any ISO applicable to the packaging sector?. Best regards. Leon B. Garcia PSP

18 years, 3 months

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RE: [ECI-EN] ISOCoated.icc versus ISO 12647-2:2004 Paper Type 1 (WB) Overprint Values

by Bestmann, Guenter RD-PN32

Hello Petr, Your observations are right, there are large differences in dE between the ISOcoated profile and the ISO12647-2 standard. The values of the overprints in the standard are not normative and there is no dE specified as for the primaries. The values of the overprints are in discussion in the ISO TC130 committee and may be are changed in the near future to values better fitting actual printings. The ISOcoated is not a generic profile, it is derived from real printings without any modifications with respect to lab values. Currently it is not allowed to use other dE formulas. ISO12647-1 specifies dE76 as the only valid color difference formula in the graphic arts. This may change in future, but then the tolerances will also be changed. Kind regards, Guenter Bestmann Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG Research & Development -----Original Message----- From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Petr Lozan Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 3:38 PM To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: [ECI-EN] ISOCoated.icc versus ISO 12647-2:2004 Paper Type 1 (WB) Overprint Values Hello all, I compared colours of the overprints specified by ISO 12647-2:2004 (WB) and the Lab values I read on 100/100 samples which I had transferred from CMYK to Lab using abs col method and ACE in Photoshop CS and ISOCoated.icc profile. There were quite high DEs. C+M DE=10, M+Y DE=7.3, C+Y DE=5.2 May be this method of acquiring Lab values isn't too correct. Regardless the results surprised me, and I don't think it's only due to the way I got the numbers. An old Matchprint laminate proof I examined (using same method, I have its ICC profile) conforms to the values specified in the standard better than ISOCoated.icc profile :-( When I compare the samples using DEcmc, the results are more acceptable. But there are questions: is it OK if colour differences (DE, not cmc) are so high in this profile? Why this? Why data which, I think, couldn't too conform to the standard were used? Will be there more accurate generic profile with such a support as ISOCoated.icc has got? I'm novice in this field. (In writing in English too, I am sorry.) Please excuse me whether what I wrote is nonsense. But I want to know, where the truth is. I though the today best practise is using ISOCoated.icc. However, if the colour differences are so high, it would be better to use another profile. Wouldn't be? Regards, Petr Petr Lozan, Student - Higher Graphic School Prague, Czech Republic petr.lozan(a)volny.cz _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

18 years, 9 months

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ISOCoated.icc versus ISO 12647-2:2004 Paper Type 1 (WB) Overprint Values

by Petr Lozan

Hello all, I compared colours of the overprints specified by ISO 12647-2:2004 (WB) and the Lab values I read on 100/100 samples which I had transferred from CMYK to Lab using abs col method and ACE in Photoshop CS and ISOCoated.icc profile. There were quite high DEs. C+M DE=10, M+Y DE=7.3, C+Y DE=5.2 May be this method of acquiring Lab values isn't too correct. Regardless the results surprised me, and I don't think it's only due to the way I got the numbers. An old Matchprint laminate proof I examined (using same method, I have its ICC profile) conforms to the values specified in the standard better than ISOCoated.icc profile :-( When I compare the samples using DEcmc, the results are more acceptable. But there are questions: is it OK if colour differences (DE, not cmc) are so high in this profile? Why this? Why data which, I think, couldn't too conform to the standard were used? Will be there more accurate generic profile with such a support as ISOCoated.icc has got? I'm novice in this field. (In writing in English too, I am sorry.) Please excuse me whether what I wrote is nonsense. But I want to know, where the truth is. I though the today best practise is using ISOCoated.icc. However, if the colour differences are so high, it would be better to use another profile. Wouldn't be? Regards, Petr Petr Lozan, Student - Higher Graphic School Prague, Czech Republic petr.lozan(a)volny.cz

18 years, 9 months

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Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles

by Henk Gianotten

At 08:27 7-7-2005 Guenter Bestmann wrote: >Black generation with length and width: > >In normal color composition, black begins in the midtones (starting point >of black length) and increases slowly towards shadow. The effective range >of black in chroma varies (black width). > >"Black length" >You define the starting point for black (relative to cyan) with the "Black >length" slider: from a very short black (skeleton black) to a long black >(full range). > >(snip) >"Black width" >You define the effective range of black with the "Black width" slider: >from a narrow black ("Only in gray") to a wide black ("Full extent"). The >effective range also depends on the setting for black length. >- Wide black: Black goes way into the chroma range if the slider is in >position "10" (maximum setting). >An optimal black is calculated by PrintOpen on the basis of the settings >for "Black length" and "Black >width" and the information taken from the color data. The information on the Black "construction" in ICC profiles is, in my opinion, very important. I would welcome a standardized way of expressing these values. Sometimes Black is described in L values, and in this case described in cyan percentages. Are these settings part of the ISO standard for ICC profiles? Regards, Henk

18 years, 9 months

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RE: [ECI-EN] RE: Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles

by Bestmann, Guenter RD-PN32

Hello Jeroen, find attached a short description of black length and black width from the PrintOpen documentation. Regards, Guenter Bestmann Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG Research & Development Black generation with length and width: In normal color composition, black begins in the midtones (starting point of black length) and increases slowly towards shadow. The effective range of black in chroma varies (black width). "Black length" You define the starting point for black (relative to cyan) with the "Black length" slider: from a very short black (skeleton black) to a long black (full range). - Short black: A black known as skeleton black is produced if the slider is in position "2". Depending on your process, the first two levels can produce very similar results since a sudden use of black has to be avoided. If a hue can be created using three colors, no black is used. Black will only be added for very dark shades of black. The portion of black will increase considerably with the density. Note: The minimum setting is "2" because values less than that are of no use for reproduction. If skeleton black is used for images, the amount of black ink can be adjusted for the text without adversely affecting the images during the printing process. This reduces the effect of any moiré that may appear, although the dot area is greater and the gray balance (see also Gray balance) is susceptible to fluctuations in the printing process. - Standard black: A standard black is produced in slider positions "5" to "7". The use of black begins in the midtones and slowly increases towards shadow. This is the most widely used type in color composition. - Full range: A long black is produced in slider positions "8" to "10". The use of black already begins in the quarter tones and slowly increases towards shadow. Examples: For a short black set the slider to position "3", this corresponds to a 70% starting point for black relative to cyan. For a long black set the slider to position "7", this corresponds to a 30% starting point for black relative to cyan. "Black width" You define the effective range of black with the "Black width" slider: from a narrow black ("Only in gray") to a wide black ("Full extent"). The effective range also depends on the setting for black length. - Narrow black: Black only affects a narrow range around the gray axis if the slider is in position "0" (minimum setting). Only in very dark colors does it go further outwards. - Standard black: Standard black is produced in slider position "5". Its effect is moderate, going up into the chroma range. This is the most frequently used black in color composition. - Wide black: Black goes way into the chroma range if the slider is in position "10" (maximum setting). An optimal black is calculated by PrintOpen on the basis of the settings for "Black length" and "Black width" and the information taken from the color data. -----Original Message----- From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Jeroen Duller (Grafiplus) Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:00 AM To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: RE: [ECI-EN] RE: Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles Abe, Besides this topic... Talking about PrintOpen and Black generation... I read in the ECI ISOcoated.pdf the Black Lenght is set to 9 and the Width to 5. My question is: What is the range in PrintOpen to set Black to. Is it a value between 0 to 10 or 0 to 20? Or something else? I don't use PrintOpen but I want to refer to ISOcoated in my profile creation. Jeroen Duller ________________________________ GrafiPlus GrafiPlus Kobaltweg 38 Zandvoortstraat 45 3542 CE UTRECHT 2800 Mechelen +31 30 2415555 +32 15435193 jeroenduller(a)grafiplus.nl jeroenduller(a)grafiplus.be www.grafiplus.nl www.grafiplus.be ________________________________ -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] Namens Abe Hayhurst Verzonden: dinsdag 5 juli 2005 23:13 Aan: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de CC: pconstab(a)adobe.com Onderwerp: [ECI-EN] RE: Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles 1. If you prefer the smoothness of the Adobe gamut mapping over the FOGRA/ECI profiles, then why not use the FOGRA datasets and create your own profiles based on them? They would share the same gray balance, primaries, secondaries, etc., but would use your "smoother" gamut mapping. 2. I use PrintOpen, which was used to generate the FOGRA/ECI profiles, to generate my profiles. I would say that there is less difference between the Perceptual rendering intent and the Relative Colorimetric rendering intent of Adobe profiles than PrintOpen Profiles. We don't find the lighter midtones objectionable. 3. Same as #1. If you like your gamut mapping strategies better, then why don't use the same colorimetric data as FOGRA/ECI and use your own gamut mapping. 4. I don't think licensing will be an issue. ECI is distributing the profiles. 5. I prefer a longer black as it keeps things more stable on press. It also allows you to achieve more chromatic colors in the shadow areas. Thanks, Abe Hayhurst We Do Graphics, Inc. 1150 N. Main St. Orange, CA 92867 714-997-7390 abe(a)wedographics.com _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

18 years, 9 months

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RE: [ECI-EN] RE: Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles

by Jeroen Duller (Grafiplus)

Abe, Besides this topic... Talking about PrintOpen and Black generation... I read in the ECI ISOcoated.pdf the Black Lenght is set to 9 and the Width to 5. My question is: What is the range in PrintOpen to set Black to. Is it a value between 0 to 10 or 0 to 20? Or something else? I don't use PrintOpen but I want to refer to ISOcoated in my profile creation. Jeroen Duller ________________________________ GrafiPlus GrafiPlus Kobaltweg 38 Zandvoortstraat 45 3542 CE UTRECHT 2800 Mechelen +31 30 2415555 +32 15435193 jeroenduller(a)grafiplus.nl jeroenduller(a)grafiplus.be www.grafiplus.nl www.grafiplus.be ________________________________ -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] Namens Abe Hayhurst Verzonden: dinsdag 5 juli 2005 23:13 Aan: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de CC: pconstab(a)adobe.com Onderwerp: [ECI-EN] RE: Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles 1. If you prefer the smoothness of the Adobe gamut mapping over the FOGRA/ECI profiles, then why not use the FOGRA datasets and create your own profiles based on them? They would share the same gray balance, primaries, secondaries, etc., but would use your "smoother" gamut mapping. 2. I use PrintOpen, which was used to generate the FOGRA/ECI profiles, to generate my profiles. I would say that there is less difference between the Perceptual rendering intent and the Relative Colorimetric rendering intent of Adobe profiles than PrintOpen Profiles. We don't find the lighter midtones objectionable. 3. Same as #1. If you like your gamut mapping strategies better, then why don't use the same colorimetric data as FOGRA/ECI and use your own gamut mapping. 4. I don't think licensing will be an issue. ECI is distributing the profiles. 5. I prefer a longer black as it keeps things more stable on press. It also allows you to achieve more chromatic colors in the shadow areas. Thanks, Abe Hayhurst We Do Graphics, Inc. 1150 N. Main St. Orange, CA 92867 714-997-7390 abe(a)wedographics.com _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

18 years, 9 months

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RE: [ECI-EN] Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles

by Bestmann, Guenter RD-PN32

Hello, Bob Marchant wrote: "Our observations and trials of the ECI profiles agree very much with the views above. We also have some issues with the ECI profiles when used with relative colorimetric rendering intent (I'm not sure if these profiles were generated with this intent in mind)." According to the ICC Profile Format Specification (now also ISO 15076-1:2005) the content of the relative (and absolute) colorimetric rendering intent should be the measurement data without any modifications. The standard ECI profiles are build with this intent in mind. The AtoB1 tag (CMYK to LAB) reflects exactly the measurement data. The BtoA1 tag (LAB to CMYK) is the inverse of the AtoB1 tag with clipping of all LAB values outside the color gamut of the printing process. The black generation is equivalent to the separation tag. Because of the very different goals in perceptual and relative rendering the results of a color conversion are different. Kind regards, Guenter Bestmann -----Original Message----- From: Bob Marchant [mailto:bobphoto@dircon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 5:01 PM To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Cc: "Florian Süßl"; Bestmann, Guenter RD-PN32; "Olaf Drümmer"; eci(a)lists.transmedia.de; Peter Constable; "Olaf Drümmer" Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles Hello all, > 1 - Adobe gamut mapping is very smooth. During testing of non-Adobe > profiles, we noticed some poor smoothness of perceptual mapping in > certain areas of the color gamut. > 2 - Perceptual gamut mapping of Adobe profiles are consistent with > gamut mapping of many commonly used press profiling applications. This > leads to better consistency in workflows. We noticed that the ECI > profiles' perceptual mapping was significantly different than the > perceptual mapping of our current set of profiles (lighter in the > mid-tones). > Question: Is this a preferred perceptual mapping in the EU compared to > the Gretag/Adobe type rendering?. > 3 - User's are aware of Adobe's gamut mapping strategies (they're in > our other profiles). The new (Adobe) Europe FOGRA27 profile shares > these traits reducing unexpected surprises when separations are > reviewed. > 4 - We are not required to license Heidelberg's IP to distribute the > profile. > 5 - ECI's profile creates a very long black starting at 0%. We have > been told that users like to see "cleaner" highlight color without K. > Our black starts at 30% of total ink. > > Our observations and trials of the ECI profiles agree very much with the views above. We also have some issues with the ECI profiles when used with relative colorimetric rendering intent (I'm not sure if these profiles were generated with this intent in mind). We've been using both the new Adobe Europe FOGRA27 profile , and generating our own profiles using the FOGRA characterisation data and Gretag software using varying parameters for black generation depending on the images being converted/separated . Both of these routes are working well, especially when using the relative rendering intent as our work is for the best part totally colour critical. As a matter of interest, are Adobe considering building profiles with varying amounts of GCR/UCR for use on an image by image basis? (On a recent project we produced a 'family' of profiles for a photographic publishing project. Just three were needed to deal with the various types of images reproduced in the book concerned). As far as licensing of profiles is concerned, we understand that there may still be some issues. This has been much discussed among the various standards committees we are involved with. Initial contact with some of the profiling software/ hardware companies points to some leeway in this area for profiles placed in the public domain , but this has yet to be confirmed. Bob Marchant. Bob Marchant Photography / Colour Therapy

18 years, 9 months

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RE: Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles

by Abe Hayhurst

1. If you prefer the smoothness of the Adobe gamut mapping over the FOGRA/ECI profiles, then why not use the FOGRA datasets and create your own profiles based on them? They would share the same gray balance, primaries, secondaries, etc., but would use your "smoother" gamut mapping. 2. I use PrintOpen, which was used to generate the FOGRA/ECI profiles, to generate my profiles. I would say that there is less difference between the Perceptual rendering intent and the Relative Colorimetric rendering intent of Adobe profiles than PrintOpen Profiles. We don't find the lighter midtones objectionable. 3. Same as #1. If you like your gamut mapping strategies better, then why don't use the same colorimetric data as FOGRA/ECI and use your own gamut mapping. 4. I don't think licensing will be an issue. ECI is distributing the profiles. 5. I prefer a longer black as it keeps things more stable on press. It also allows you to achieve more chromatic colors in the shadow areas. Thanks, Abe Hayhurst We Do Graphics, Inc. 1150 N. Main St. Orange, CA 92867 714-997-7390 abe(a)wedographics.com

18 years, 9 months

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Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles

by Henk Gianotten

Dear List, Recently there was a lot of discussion on the ECI List (mainly German section) on the Adobe profiles and the quality of the rendering. Peter Constable of Adobe asked on the Adobe Pre Release Forum several questions regarding this issue. I would like to copy Peter's questions on this list and ask you to comment on this and a copy to Peter directly. This could improve Adobe's satisfaction index and help us to increase the usage of ISO profiles. Regards, Henk Gianotten -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:17:41 -0700 From: Peter Constable <pconstab(a)adobe.com> Subject: Re: Fwd: ECI ISO Coated vs. Adobe Europe ISO Coated FOGRA 27 To: Henk Gianotten <henk(a)gianotten.com> Hi Henk, Your Question #1 - "When does Adobe deliver the ECI-profiles as part of their standard profile package in CS2?" We currently are trying to support the FOGRA data sets that seem relevant for our users. We looked into supplying the ECI profiles during out development of the Adobe FOGRA27 profile but there were several issues that we could not resolve. These were comments I posted on the Adobe Pre-release forum as reasons for creating our own profiles: ************* 1 - Adobe gamut mapping is very smooth. During testing of non-Adobe profiles, we noticed some poor smoothness of perceptual mapping in certain areas of the color gamut. 2 - Perceptual gamut mapping of Adobe profiles are consistent with gamut mapping of many commonly used press profiling applications. This leads to better consistency in workflows. We noticed that the ECI profiles' perceptual mapping was significantly different than the perceptual mapping of our current set of profiles (lighter in the mid-tones). Question: Is this a preferred perceptual mapping in the EU compared to the Gretag/Adobe type rendering?. 3 - User's are aware of Adobe's gamut mapping strategies (they're in our other profiles). The new (Adobe) Europe FOGRA27 profile shares these traits reducing unexpected surprises when separations are reviewed. 4 - We are not required to license Heidelberg's IP to distribute the profile. 5 - ECI's profile creates a very long black starting at 0%. We have been told that users like to see "cleaner" highlight color without K. Our black starts at 30% of total ink. ************* Henk - I would appreciate feed-back from the ECI members on these 5 points above. We would be interested in shipping third party profiles if we could make headway on the 5 issues mentioned above. Your Question #2 - "Why did Adobe deliver only 2 profiles based on the ISO standards and not all 6 different versions?" Which profiles & ISO standards are you referring to? Several of our profiles refer to older FOGRA data using ISO 12647-2:1996 (Euroscale Coated & Uncoated) and FOGRA27 which references ISO 12647-2:2004. Our Japan Color profiles also use ISO 12647 type printing. Others, like the SWOP profile, reference ISO-based ink. I think your question is, "Why hasn't Adobe supported the other "major" FOGRA characterizations?"? We are looking at doing that. Regards, Peter Constable Color Workflow Expert Core Technologies/Color Adobe Systems, Inc. 206.675.7476 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 years, 9 months

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ECI-EN July 2005