Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
by Tony McDonough
Mr. Sabastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
AJMc
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From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com]On Behalf Of marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Sent: 18 April 2008 13:02
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr. Sabastian,
If possible I would like to get the report too.
Regards.
Marc Mahy
email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Inactive hide details for "Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" ' src="cid:125093912@18042008-1679" width=16>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
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Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
<mailto:anand07.s@gmail.com> anand07.s(a)gmail.com
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, < <mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
From: elango ae < <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: < <mailto:508214.18894.qm@web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com> 508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
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Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email ( <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
>From: "Jo Brunenberg"
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi Sebastian,
>
>In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of scientific calculation.
>In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
>(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
>
>Best regards,
>Jo Brunenberg
>Senior Technology Consultant
>ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
> <http://www.rotosmeets.com/> www.rotosmeets.com
> <http://www.rsdb.com/> www.rsdb.com
>
> <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>>
>>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>>
>>
>>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>>
>>
>>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>>
>>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
>>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
>>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>>
>>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>>
>>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>>
>>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good quality.
>>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>>
>>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>>
>>Now:
>>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>>
>>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>>
>>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>>And so on.
>>
>>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>>
>>Best regards
>>A Sebastian
>>_______________________________________________
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>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: < <mailto:4805E5DA.6070104@redblue.de> 4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de>
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On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
>
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts', until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
>
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
<http://www.redblue.de/> http://www.redblue.de
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
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Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
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Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
From: Louis Dery < <mailto:ldery@tglc.com> ldery(a)tglc.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: < <mailto:1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590@tglc.com> 1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com>
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format=flowed
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
<http://www.tglc.com/> www.tglc.com
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, <mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
>
> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> the software.
> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> or convert for example colour standards to press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
> before you purchase.
>
> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
From: Axel Robert < <mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com> axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: < <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: < <mailto:C42D0E3B.3444%25axel.robert@ubisoft.com> C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello everyone,
Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device link profile.
And it work very well.
Kinds regards.
Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer cet email.
Think about the environment before printing this email.
Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? < <mailto:ldery@tglc.com> ldery(a)tglc.com> a ?crit?:
> Hi A Seb,
>
> About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
> if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
> software, just let me know.
>
> I am also interested about the essay.
>
> regards,
>
> Louis Dery
> TGLC inc.
> <http://www.tglc.com/> www.tglc.com
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, <mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> wrote:
>>
>> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
>> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
>> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
>> the software.
>> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
>> or convert for example colour standards to press.
>> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
>> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
>> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
>> print BW? LOL!
>> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
>> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
>> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
>> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
>> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
>> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
>> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
>> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
>> tools to the user to make their own.
>> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
>> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
>> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
>> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
>> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
>> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
>> before you purchase.
>>
>> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
>> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
>> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>>
>> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
>> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
>> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>>
>> Cheers
>> A Seb
>>
>> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
>> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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15 years, 12 months
- 9
- 8
(no subject)
by rvbbernard＠free.fr
Mr Sebastian,
I am interested by the essay. Could you send it to me, please?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards,
_____________________________________________________________
RVB.Prod
Hervé Bernard
Les images :www.rvb-prod.fr
Le blog sur l'image :www.regard-sur-limage.com
http://www.photographie.com/?pubid=104640&secid=2&rubid=8
6 rue des Lions Saint-Paul
75004 Paris
Tél : 00 33 (0)6 16 13 58 98
A paraître, un essai intitulé "Regard sur l'image" Thalia Éditions
http://www.rvb-prod.fr/regard/souscription-regard01.pdfhttp://www.e-nettarg…
puis, cliquer sur la photo noir et blanc
Co-auteur du DVD "A la recherche de la fidélité", un DVD sur le réglage des
home-cinémas, www.rvb-prod.fr/documents/presentation_dvd.pdf
Auteur du livre "L'image numérique et le Cinéma" aux Ed Eyrolles et du
"Dictionnaire de la Photonumérique" aux Éditions VM
rvbbernard(a)aol.com
15 years, 12 months
- 1
- 0
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24
by Herr Spitfeure
Re: Ink saving applications
I agree with Mr Roger Breton. "Desaturated colors" as a result of "ink saving" is not acceptable. The solution tried might be from a "leading provider", but maybe the provider is leading other things the colour management.
I have said it here before. Some call it "ink saving". I used to do that to. With the technology I use I now call it "optimizing the use of ink (read the post about TIC that I wrote). The result of optimizing the use of ink is less ink than "normal".
It is a relative issue though. It is less ink in comparison to what is to much: people intend to put more ink that what is needed historically and even today.
To comment on Anand's post: "But the downside is the more ink save we give, the colors moves more towards gray". As said before: if you use simple GCR techonolgy you would get this not acceptable result.
Furthermore: a software that is supposed to "save ink" and that has a function where the setting can be altered as in more or less save ink speak its own language: not very serious and probably not very scientific at all.
I also said before: if a provider, leading or not, can not even make a decent ICC-profile then you better keep you eyes opened when you try out their "save ink" functions.
The was a lot of criticism but it is justified: conclusions from the field.
Cheers
A Sebastian
On Monday, April 21, 2008, at 07:27AM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
>Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Ink saving applications (Roger Breton)
> 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 (Karsten_P)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:42:23 -0400
>From: Roger Breton <graxx(a)videotron.ca>
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Ink saving applications
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID: <C430CE8F.251FF%graxx(a)videotron.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Dear Anand,
>
>I don't know how all existing ink saving software work but GMG Ink
>Optimization is actually based on iterative press characterization. So, it's
>not possible, in my humble experience, to end up with desaturated colors as
>you described. Perhaps using the other packages leads to these questionable
>results? I find that susprising.
>
>> We recently got an Ink save software from a leading provider. We processed a
>> number of pages using the ink saving software, RIPped it and obtained the
>> percentage coverage area of each ink in the page and compared it with same
>> pages without processing in the ink save software. The figures are impressive.
>> From the RIP data we found the software saves 20-30% ink in Cyan, Magenta and
>> Yellow and around 30% increase in black ink. The ink saving varies with the
>> settings we feed the software.
>>
>> But the downside is the more ink save we give, the colors moves more towards
>> gray. I used an IT8 7.3 target for testing. I had the CMYK target processed
>> with the application and another without processing. I placed them one above
>> the other in a page so that the patches will be in same ink zone. The page is
>> printed in a coldset web offset press. I measured the L*a*b* values of all the
>> patches of both targets and compared them. Those patches which are modified by
>> the application showed a Delta E variation from 2 to 7.
>>
>> I feel anything above 3 Delta E is above tolerance. Please share your views
>>
>> Regards
>> Anand
>
>Roger Breton
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:22:40 +0200
>From: Karsten_P <kp(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk>
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
>To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com"
> <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
>Message-ID: <B121C028-EAF9-423B-9C4D-CEE29A4514BC(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hallo Mr. Sebastian
>
>It sounds very intersant. Please send a copy
>
>Frendly Regards
>
>Karsten Petersen
>
>IB Gruppen
>Stroeget 38
>7441 Ikast
>kp(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk
>www.ibco.dk
>
>
>Den 18/04/2008 kl. 14.15 skrev Esa Hyv?rinen:
>
>> Mr. Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>> Interets too. Please, send a copy.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Esa Hyv?rinen
>>
>> _________________________________
>>
>> Pohjolan Perhokalastaja
>>
>> Esa Hyv?rinen
>>
>> Art Director
>>
>> Ylist?nm?entie 31
>>
>> 40500 Jyv?skyl?
>>
>> +358503555 134
>>
>> esa.hyvarinen(a)perhokalastaja.com
>>
>> www.perhokalastaja.com
>>
>> _________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> L?hett?j?: steven accou [mailto:steven.accou@onlinegrafics.be]
>> L?hetetty: 18. huhtikuuta 2008 15:10
>> Vastaanottaja: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> Aihe: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr Sebastian,
>>
>>
>>
>> it also interests me. Can you send me a copy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx
>>
>>
>>
>> Steven Accou
>>
>>
>>
>> steven.accou(a)onlinegrafics.be
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 18-apr-08, om 14:01 heeft marc.mahy(a)agfa.com het volgende
>> geschreven:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr. Sabastian,
>>
>> If possible I would like to get the report too.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Marc Mahy
>>
>> email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
>>
>>
>> <graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> "Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
>> Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> 04/17/2008 02:49 PM
>>
>> Please respond to
>> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> To
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> cc
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>> Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
>>
>>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr sabastian
>> Can you please send me the essay?
>>
>> Thanks and Regards
>> Anand
>> anand07.s(a)gmail.com
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en-
>> request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
>>
>> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
>> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
>> 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
>> 3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
>> From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Mr.Sabastian,
>>
>> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
>> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
>> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>> Cheers
>> A Seb
>>
>> Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
>> Thanks and regards
>> Elango
>>
>> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
>> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
>> >Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
>> > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >
>> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >
>> >You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >
>> >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> >Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
>> >
>> >
>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> >
>> >Message: 1
>> >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
>> >From: "Jo Brunenberg"
>> >Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>> >To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >Message-ID:
>> >
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> >Hi Sebastian,
>> >
>> >In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter
>> of scientific calculation.
>> >In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in
>> order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
>> >(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >Jo Brunenberg
>> >Senior Technology Consultant
>> >ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
>> >www.rotosmeets.com
>> >www.rsdb.com
>> >
>> >eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>> >>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>> >>
>> >>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger,
>> the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>> >>
>> >>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values
>> (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to
>> decide what TIC we wanted.
>> >>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell
>> etc told us was "good".
>> >>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used.
>> Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my
>> company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the
>> biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>> >>
>> >>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>> >>
>> >>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the
>> pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>> >>
>> >>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality
>> until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>> >>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather
>> then good quality.
>> >>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>> >>
>> >>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often
>> based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>> >>
>> >>Now:
>> >>For several years we have had the technology to actually
>> calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still
>> many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example:
>> 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240
>> for newsprint.
>> >>
>> >>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have
>> the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>> >>
>> >>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we
>> base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>> >>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not
>> in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just
>> Noticeable Difference.
>> >>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two
>> hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black
>> with L=11 with 233%.
>> >>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all
>> colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%.
>> Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will
>> limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>> >>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for
>> neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then
>> ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>> >>And so on.
>> >>
>> >>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what
>> is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>> >>
>> >>Best regards
>> >>A Sebastian
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>ECI-EN mailing list
>> >>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
>> >P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
>> >mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
>> >
>> >
15 years, 12 months
- 1
- 0
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24
by Herr Spitfeure
Hi all,
I have got more than 60 request for the master essay reg colour management and optimizing the printing ink for offset and other printing techn.
Sorry I have not answered - I have been painting my boat.
I will answer and send a link to the report asap. I just need to confirm with the engineer that wrote the report.
Best reg
A Sebastian
On Monday, April 21, 2008, at 07:27AM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
>Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Ink saving applications (Roger Breton)
> 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 (Karsten_P)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:42:23 -0400
>From: Roger Breton <graxx(a)videotron.ca>
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Ink saving applications
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID: <C430CE8F.251FF%graxx(a)videotron.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Dear Anand,
>
>I don't know how all existing ink saving software work but GMG Ink
>Optimization is actually based on iterative press characterization. So, it's
>not possible, in my humble experience, to end up with desaturated colors as
>you described. Perhaps using the other packages leads to these questionable
>results? I find that susprising.
>
>> We recently got an Ink save software from a leading provider. We processed a
>> number of pages using the ink saving software, RIPped it and obtained the
>> percentage coverage area of each ink in the page and compared it with same
>> pages without processing in the ink save software. The figures are impressive.
>> From the RIP data we found the software saves 20-30% ink in Cyan, Magenta and
>> Yellow and around 30% increase in black ink. The ink saving varies with the
>> settings we feed the software.
>>
>> But the downside is the more ink save we give, the colors moves more towards
>> gray. I used an IT8 7.3 target for testing. I had the CMYK target processed
>> with the application and another without processing. I placed them one above
>> the other in a page so that the patches will be in same ink zone. The page is
>> printed in a coldset web offset press. I measured the L*a*b* values of all the
>> patches of both targets and compared them. Those patches which are modified by
>> the application showed a Delta E variation from 2 to 7.
>>
>> I feel anything above 3 Delta E is above tolerance. Please share your views
>>
>> Regards
>> Anand
>
>Roger Breton
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:22:40 +0200
>From: Karsten_P <kp(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk>
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
>To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com"
> <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
>Message-ID: <B121C028-EAF9-423B-9C4D-CEE29A4514BC(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hallo Mr. Sebastian
>
>It sounds very intersant. Please send a copy
>
>Frendly Regards
>
>Karsten Petersen
>
>IB Gruppen
>Stroeget 38
>7441 Ikast
>kp(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk
>www.ibco.dk
>
>
>Den 18/04/2008 kl. 14.15 skrev Esa Hyv?rinen:
>
>> Mr. Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>> Interets too. Please, send a copy.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Esa Hyv?rinen
>>
>> _________________________________
>>
>> Pohjolan Perhokalastaja
>>
>> Esa Hyv?rinen
>>
>> Art Director
>>
>> Ylist?nm?entie 31
>>
>> 40500 Jyv?skyl?
>>
>> +358503555 134
>>
>> esa.hyvarinen(a)perhokalastaja.com
>>
>> www.perhokalastaja.com
>>
>> _________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> L?hett?j?: steven accou [mailto:steven.accou@onlinegrafics.be]
>> L?hetetty: 18. huhtikuuta 2008 15:10
>> Vastaanottaja: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> Aihe: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr Sebastian,
>>
>>
>>
>> it also interests me. Can you send me a copy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx
>>
>>
>>
>> Steven Accou
>>
>>
>>
>> steven.accou(a)onlinegrafics.be
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 18-apr-08, om 14:01 heeft marc.mahy(a)agfa.com het volgende
>> geschreven:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr. Sabastian,
>>
>> If possible I would like to get the report too.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Marc Mahy
>>
>> email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
>>
>>
>> <graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> "Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
>> Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> 04/17/2008 02:49 PM
>>
>> Please respond to
>> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> To
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> cc
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>> Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
>>
>>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>> <ecblank.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr sabastian
>> Can you please send me the essay?
>>
>> Thanks and Regards
>> Anand
>> anand07.s(a)gmail.com
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en-
>> request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
>>
>> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
>> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
>> 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
>> 3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
>> From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Mr.Sabastian,
>>
>> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
>> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
>> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>> Cheers
>> A Seb
>>
>> Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
>> Thanks and regards
>> Elango
>>
>> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
>> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
>> >Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
>> > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >
>> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >
>> >You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >
>> >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> >Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
>> >
>> >
>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> >
>> >Message: 1
>> >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
>> >From: "Jo Brunenberg"
>> >Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>> >To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >Message-ID:
>> >
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> >Hi Sebastian,
>> >
>> >In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter
>> of scientific calculation.
>> >In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in
>> order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
>> >(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >Jo Brunenberg
>> >Senior Technology Consultant
>> >ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
>> >www.rotosmeets.com
>> >www.rsdb.com
>> >
>> >eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>> >>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>> >>
>> >>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger,
>> the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>> >>
>> >>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values
>> (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to
>> decide what TIC we wanted.
>> >>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell
>> etc told us was "good".
>> >>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used.
>> Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my
>> company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the
>> biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>> >>
>> >>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>> >>
>> >>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the
>> pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>> >>
>> >>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality
>> until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>> >>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather
>> then good quality.
>> >>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>> >>
>> >>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often
>> based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>> >>
>> >>Now:
>> >>For several years we have had the technology to actually
>> calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still
>> many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example:
>> 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240
>> for newsprint.
>> >>
>> >>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have
>> the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>> >>
>> >>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we
>> base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>> >>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not
>> in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just
>> Noticeable Difference.
>> >>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two
>> hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black
>> with L=11 with 233%.
>> >>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all
>> colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%.
>> Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will
>> limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>> >>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for
>> neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then
>> ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>> >>And so on.
>> >>
>> >>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what
>> is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>> >>
>> >>Best regards
>> >>A Sebastian
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>ECI-EN mailing list
>> >>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> >>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
>> >P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
>> >mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
>> >
>> >
15 years, 12 months
- 1
- 0
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
by Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
anand07.s(a)gmail.com
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
wrote:
> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
> 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
> 3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
> From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Mr.Sabastian,
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master
> student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who
> wants it, on a personal level (email me).
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
> Thanks and regards
> Elango
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject itself.
> I will bring this subject up here soon.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
> >Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >
> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >
> >You can reach the person managing the list at
> > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >
> >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
> >
> >
> >Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 1
> >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
> >From: "Jo Brunenberg"
> >Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
> >To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >Message-ID:
> >
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >Hi Sebastian,
> >
> >In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of
> scientific calculation.
> >In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in order to
> prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
> >(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Jo Brunenberg
> >Senior Technology Consultant
> >ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
> >www.rotosmeets.com
> >www.rsdb.com
> >
> >eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
> >>I am new here. Hi all of you!
> >>
> >>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
> >>
> >>
> >>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
> >>
> >>
> >>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC
> was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
> >>
> >>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and
> not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC
> we wanted.
> >>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told
> us was "good".
> >>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for
> uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we
> learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the
> values for uncoated qualities.
> >>
> >>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
> >>
> >>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern
> as with the drum-scanners.
> >>
> >>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until
> maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
> >>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then
> good quality.
> >>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
> >>
> >>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on
> test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
> >>
> >>Now:
> >>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the
> best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use
> the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to
> 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
> >>
> >>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the
> tools, I have the tools and we use them.
> >>
> >>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a
> neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
> >>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or
> b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable
> Difference.
> >>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and
> thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
> >>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours,
> it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles
> are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top
> value for TIC.
> >>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral
> black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark
> red can in the same print reach 209%.
> >>And so on.
> >>
> >>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your
> opinion and experience regarding TIC?
> >>
> >>Best regards
> >>A Sebastian
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>ECI-EN mailing list
> >>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >
> >
> >
> >Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
> >P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
> >mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
> >
> >-------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ECI-EN mailing list
> >ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> >http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
> >
> >End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
> >*************************************
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
> From: Joerg Schober
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
> > I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master
> student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who
> wants it, on a personal level (email me).
> >
> >
> I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts', until
> now I have seen only many words and promises.
>
> br,
> J?rg Schober
> > Cheers
> > A Seb
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> J?rg Schober
> ______________________________
> r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
> Qualit?tsmanagement
> Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
> D-80939 Muenchen
> fon +49 89 316 92-625
> fax +49 89 316 92-779
> http://www.redblue.de
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
> From: "Jones, Ken"
> Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
> To:
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Hi
> This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive me if
> this has been answered elsewhere..
>
> We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
> However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
> conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our FOGRA
> 27
> proofs.
> What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a files to
> their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would want them
> to do.
>
> Thanks
> Ken Jones
> Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
>
> Penguin Group (UK)
> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
>
>
> This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an
> intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies.
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
> End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
> *************************************
>
>
>
>
> Thanks and Regards
> A.Elangovan
> Managing Director
> Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
> Digiscape Design School
> 2 Wheatcrofts Road
> Nungambakkam
> Chennai-600034
> India
> Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
> mob: 0091 98410 23223
> Fx: 0091 44 28232290
> Email: elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk,sales@cadgraf.com
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
> From: Louis Dery <ldery(a)tglc.com>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
> format=flowed
>
> Hi A Seb,
>
> About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
> if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
> software, just let me know.
>
> I am also interested about the essay.
>
> regards,
>
> Louis Dery
> TGLC inc.
> www.tglc.com
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> wrote:
> >
> > IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> > The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> > profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> > the software.
> > I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> > or convert for example colour standards to press.
> > Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> > them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> > ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> > print BW? LOL!
> > I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> > software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> > F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> > me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> > the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> > manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> > and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> > serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> > tools to the user to make their own.
> > Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> > decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> > make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> > colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> > In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> > softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
> > before you purchase.
> >
> > Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> > for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> > 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
> >
> > I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> > master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> > engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
> >
> > Cheers
> > A Seb
> >
> > */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> > itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
> From: Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
> Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> Message-ID: <C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com<C42D0E3B.3444%25axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
>
> I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device link profile.
> And it work very well.
>
> Kinds regards.
>
>
> Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
> Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
>
>
> P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer cet email.
> Think about the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
> Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? <ldery(a)tglc.com> a ?crit?:
>
> > Hi A Seb,
> >
> > About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
> > if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
> > software, just let me know.
> >
> > I am also interested about the essay.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Louis Dery
> > TGLC inc.
> > www.tglc.com
> >
> >
> > On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> >> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> >> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> >> the software.
> >> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> >> or convert for example colour standards to press.
> >> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> >> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> >> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> >> print BW? LOL!
> >> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> >> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> >> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> >> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> >> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> >> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> >> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> >> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> >> tools to the user to make their own.
> >> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> >> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> >> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> >> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> >> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> >> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
> >> before you purchase.
> >>
> >> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> >> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> >> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
> >>
> >> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> >> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> >> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> A Seb
> >>
> >> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> >> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > ECI-EN mailing list
> > ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
> End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
> *************************************
>
15 years, 12 months
- 9
- 8
Ink saving applications
by Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan
Dear all
I am new here.
We recently got an Ink save software from a leading provider. We processed a
number of pages using the ink saving software, RIPped it and obtained the
percentage coverage area of each ink in the page and compared it with same
pages without processing in the ink save software. The figures are
impressive. From the RIP data we found the software saves 20-30% ink in
Cyan, Magenta and Yellow and around 30% increase in black ink. The ink
saving varies with the settings we feed the software.
But the downside is the more ink save we give, the colors moves more towards
gray. I used an IT8 7.3 target for testing. I had the CMYK target processed
with the application and another without processing. I placed them one above
the other in a page so that the patches will be in same ink zone. The page
is printed in a coldset web offset press. I measured the L*a*b* values of
all the patches of both targets and compared them. Those patches which are
modified by the application showed a Delta E variation from 2 to 7.
I feel anything above 3 Delta E is above tolerance. Please share your views
Regards
Anand
16 years
- 2
- 1
Ink saving
by Louis Dery
Ink saving is of great interest!
If anyone use a specific target file for evaluation of ink savings,
please let me know if it is available (e-mail me) so that I can
"apply" ink savings using our new software and show its capability to
save ink and preserve color accuracy.
Louis Dery
Color Management Expert
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com
ldery(a)tglc.com
418-877-9114
16 years
- 1
- 0
eMail address of "A Sebatian"
by ECI Admin
Dear all,
everyone who is interested in the report may please write his request
directly to achtung_spitfire(a)mac.com
Thank you,
best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen
Peter Kleinheider
ECI-Admin
16 years
- 1
- 0
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest,
by Rafael Andrés
Mr. Sebastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
R Andres
16 years
- 1
- 0
Re: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
by Paul Sherfield
HI
I agree with Jan-Peters comments below re the profile, and digital proofing
but as the required 'on press conditions' are so similar, an ISO coated or
ISO coated v2 CMYK profile will give a good result on a the same, correctly
process controlled, press.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:45:45 +0200
> From: Jan-Peter Homann <homann(a)colormanagement.de>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <4807A8E9.1030408(a)colormanagement.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hello all,
> For neutral color areas and skintones F27 and F39 are very close
> together. The visual differences are mainly in the area of saturated blues.
> FOGRA39 represents especially concerning this color area better real
> world prints.
>
> If you have FOGRA27 Proofs, the resulting blues of a well balanced print
> will be more reddish than the proof.
>
> For a good conversion of F27 PDF/X 1a files, I recommend a PDF
> Colorserver with (dynamic) DeviceLink profiles.
> The DeviceLink should preserve the separation but limit the TAC to 330
> or 300.
>
> Please not, that some devicelinks don?t correct the blue problem,
> because they are wrong calculated...
>
> A good starting-point are e.g. solutions from GMG or Alwan.
> They offer the possibility of an online test or a demoversion, which You
> could use with a real world job.
>
> Regards
> Jan-Peter
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Save Paper - Do you really need to print this e-mail?
http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards)
Member - BPIF Technical Standards Committee
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16 years
- 1
- 0