August 2003 - ECI-EN - lists.callassoftware.com

by Stefan Brües

Jo, we have already started the discussion to setup a working group web offset within the ECI community. When Olaf Druemmer told me about your conversation in Amsterdam we asked some web offset specialists if and how a web offset production differs from sheetfed offset (in terms of decsribing the process by a set of colorimetric reference measurement data and sample profiles). It seems that there are notable differences. Are there other web offset specialists out on this mailing list with an opinion? The key issue: Does the web offset community like to get dedicated reference printing conditions (e.g. PSR for gravure and PSO for sheetfed offset) prepared and published by ECI? Mohn Media (a 'senior' member of the ECI community) would be willing to kick-off such an effort, if the European web offset market wants us to do so. Kind regards Stefan Brües ECI chairman >Hello Jouni Marttila, > >Good to get a specialist from the paper industry on board of this >discussion group! > >I am responsible for colormanagement issues for our three weboffset >plants in the Netherlands which explains my interest in this subject. >We have done a great deal of testing and comparing proofing results >with standard profiles like the ECI "ISO Web coated sb" and our own >"custom profiles" with final press results. > >We have mixed feelings about the practical use of the ECI web offset profiles. > >First of al I must say that l there is a real need for standard ICC >profiles for web offset in Europe and we very much support the ECI >initiative as such. >As for the present ECI profiles however we have experienced that >using these for digital colour proofing in order to predict the >press results on our presses these profiles do not really do a good >job, at least not in our plants. > >Possibly this has to do with the fact that the ECI profiles for >weboffset were made from prints that were actually produced on a >sheet-fed press. >>From what I understand it has been tried to simulate the print >>characteristic of a web press in sheetfed offset. >(I guess this must have been a hell of a job). >In my opinion however this is a very theoretical approach and I am >not surprised to see problems arise. Just think of different >trapping behaviour in weboffset versus sheetfed offset. > >In our practice untill now we get a much better prediction of the >press results in digital proofing by using our own "custom profiles". >The problems we experience with the ECI profiles for web offset are >not in the area of maximum ink coverage, which is well defined in >these profiles. >The problems are in the colourspace of the profiles which is larger >than we see in day-to-day weboffset productions. >In web offset production we cannot achieve the high saturation >especially in the reds and violets which the ECI profiles for >weboffset predict in a digital proof. > >The attached image shows the difference in colour space between the >ECI, the US SWOP and our custom profile. >Interesting enough our own custom profile is much closer to the U.S. >Web Coated (SWOP) v2 profile than to the ECI SO Web Coated sb >profile. > >To our opinion it would be an interesting exercise to print >profiling test targets on a number of recently installed modern >weboffset presses in Europe to see what "real life" results are in >day to day practice and compare these results with the ECI profiles >for web offset which have been created on a theoretical basis. > >I would be in favour of a new set of ECI weboffset profiles that are >more in line with day-to-day practical results and we would be >willing to cooperate in such an exercise. > >Best regards, > >Jo Brunenberg >Senior technology consultant Prepress / ICT >LOGIC USE BV >(member of Roto Smeets) >www.rotosmeets.com > >_______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en -- -- Prof. Dr. Stefan Brües University of Wuppertal Fachbereich E - Advanced Communication Systems Laboratory Rainer-Gruenter-Strasse 21 42119 Wuppertal, Germany Phone: +49/202/4391167 Secretary: +49/202/4391300 Fax: +49/202/4391144 email: brues(a)uni-wuppertal.de Website: http://www.dmt.uni-wuppertal.de

20 years, 8 months

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Pre-press settings of standard ICC profiles

by Dan Caldwell

Jouni Marttila wrote... Hello all! This is my first posting to this list so I hope You bear with this novice question. We (papermaker) have been looking into making ICC-profiles for our heatset papers (press spesific - not general) together with our customers. Very often when talking with experts I run into suggestion to use these standard profiles - either Euroscale Coated or these newer profiles ECI (e.g. Isocoated.icc) is providing. I have understood that these so-called standard profiles are mainly made for sheet-fed printing. How well these suit for heatset printing? My main concern is what kind of pre-press settings (Maximum ink coverage, UCR/GCR) were used when making these profiles. In heatset maximum ink is usually around 280-320% when in sheet-fed I understand it can be up to 350%. Is the pre-press setting used listed in somewhere or could someone tell about those? Thanks in advance Jouni Marttila Hi Jouni, You can always run an RGB set of ramps through the profile in Photoshop and measure the total ink for each value in the black patch. A look at the channels will give you a good idea of the UCR/GCR settings. Dan Dan Caldwell, Vice President of Operations See us at GraphExpo booth # 4352 Integrated Color Solutions, Inc. 609 South Vulcan Street, Suite 301, Encinitas, CA 92024 Office 760-942-7434 | Fax 760-436-4149 dan(a)icscolor.com

20 years, 8 months

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Re: [ECI-EN] standard ICC profiles

by Jo Brunenberg

Hello Jouni Marttila, Good to get a specialist from the paper industry on board of this discussion group! I am responsible for colormanagement issues for our three weboffset plants in the Netherlands which explains my interest in this subject. We have done a great deal of testing and comparing proofing results with standard profiles like the ECI "ISO Web coated sb" and our own "custom profiles" with final press results. We have mixed feelings about the practical use of the ECI web offset profiles. First of al I must say that l there is a real need for standard ICC profiles for web offset in Europe and we very much support the ECI initiative as such. As for the present ECI profiles however we have experienced that using these for digital colour proofing in order to predict the press results on our presses these profiles do not really do a good job, at least not in our plants. Possibly this has to do with the fact that the ECI profiles for weboffset were made from prints that were actually produced on a sheet-fed press.

20 years, 8 months

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AW: [ECI-EN] Pre-press settings of standard ICC profiles

by Bestmann, Guenter 3887 S-PN-RD11

Hello, please look at the ECI homepage (www.eci.org) in the download section for the new ISO profiles. Download these profile sets (Basic and Expert). After decompressing the files you will find a description for all profiles. There are also profiles for web coated paper (Paper type 3 of ISO 12647-2). Hope this will help, kind regards Guenter Bestmann ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Guenter Bestmann Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG Product Center Prinect S-PN-RD11 Dr.-Hell-Straße D-24107 Kiel, Germany Tel.: +49 (0) 431/3863887 Mail: Guenter.Bestmann(a)Heidelberg.com -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2003 15:18 An: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Betreff: [ECI-EN] Pre-press settings of standard ICC profiles Hello all! This is my first posting to this list so I hope You bear with this novice question. We (papermaker) have been looking into making ICC-profiles for our heatset papers (press spesific - not general) together with our customers. Very often when talking with experts I run into suggestion to use these standard profiles - either Euroscale Coated or these newer profiles ECI (e.g. Isocoated.icc) is providing. I have understood that these so-called standard profiles are mainly made for sheet-fed printing. How well these suit for heatset printing? My main concern is what kind of pre-press settings (Maximum ink coverage, UCR/GCR) were used when making these profiles. In heatset maximum ink is usually around 280-320% when in sheet-fed I understand it can be up to 350%. Is the pre-press setting used listed in somewhere or could someone tell about those? Thanks in advance Jouni Marttila _________________________________________ Jouni Marttila Project Manager M-real Corporation Technology Centre Kirkniemi FIN-08800 KIRKNIEMI Finland Tel: +358 (0)10 464 2908 Fax: +358 (0)10 464 2412 Mobile: +358 (0)50 381 9085 Email: jouni.marttila(a)m-real.com www.m-real.com _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

20 years, 8 months

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Pre-press settings of standard ICC profiles

by Marttila Jouni

Hello all! This is my first posting to this list so I hope You bear with this novice question. We (papermaker) have been looking into making ICC-profiles for our heatset papers (press spesific - not general) together with our customers. Very often when talking with experts I run into suggestion to use these standard profiles - either Euroscale Coated or these newer profiles ECI (e.g. Isocoated.icc) is providing. I have understood that these so-called standard profiles are mainly made for sheet-fed printing. How well these suit for heatset printing? My main concern is what kind of pre-press settings (Maximum ink coverage, UCR/GCR) were used when making these profiles. In heatset maximum ink is usually around 280-320% when in sheet-fed I understand it can be up to 350%. Is the pre-press setting used listed in somewhere or could someone tell about those? Thanks in advance Jouni Marttila _________________________________________ Jouni Marttila Project Manager M-real Corporation Technology Centre Kirkniemi FIN-08800 KIRKNIEMI Finland Tel: +358 (0)10 464 2908 Fax: +358 (0)10 464 2412 Mobile: +358 (0)50 381 9085 Email: jouni.marttila(a)m-real.com www.m-real.com

20 years, 8 months

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Why be scared by device independent color?

by Olaf Druemmer

Hi, there is one thing that has kept chasing me for quite a while now, and I'd like to share this with you for some possibly interesting discussion: Assumptions: - at least some 'color management' - whether correctly or not - is done everywhere (and be it only conversion to CMYK or retouching in CMYK of some image in Photoshop) - for most documents that get printed on a printing press any necessary conversion to CMYK or establishment of CMYK values - again: whether correctly or not - is done early on in the food chain (e.g. by the designer or layouter, as opposed to the printer) - in terms of number of different pages produced altogether, more pages are created by not so professional people but also often printed in smaller print runs, whereas a comparably smaller number of pages printed in higher print runs (magazine/newspaper ads, catalogues, direct mailing pieces, packaging, etc.) is typically produced by more professional people (though your mileage may vary significantly ;->) - the number of printers (i.e. people/companies running print presses) is relatively small when compared to the number of people creating/producing pages to be printed on presses. - the number of people in the graphic arts industry who master color management (i.e. they get it right nearly all of the time) is relatively small; these people are typically more often found down stream in the food chain, often as staff in high quality prepress service providers or prepress departments of larger agencies/industry customers/printers. - anybody else in the industry - for more than one reason - is having a hard time getting color management right and getting reliable results - those professionals mastering color management typically have learnt that real color management is about process control: know what your color will look like, and how to make sure it does look like that in the end (i.e. after having been printed on the press). They accept that quite often it might have been possible to get 'better' color, but due to the fact that under the given circumstances it has not been possible to predict and control in what way the color would have been better these people resort to slightly less ideal, but predictable color. - many other people involved in the graphic arts industry - whether those working inside it or those buying its services - are (often unknowingly) rather looking for the best possible result. They do not mind if a repeat print run looks slightly different as long as it looks 'nice' (though this is less true for specific colors, e.g. Coca Cola will always want that their Coca Cola red looks as much the same all the time as possible). Conclusions: - at the moment the majority of people who are (knowingly or unknowingly) doing color management (e.g. conversion of a digital camera image from some kind of ICC based RGB to whatever kind of CMYK, editing of color in CMYK on screen, judging color from a color print printed from CMYK data) ... do no have a clue about color management ... do not have ideal equipment to do color management well ... do not have the means nor the knowledge or experience to set up equipment for reliable color management which means this in a way is like asking a deaf person to listen to the radio and write down what they understood from the broadcast. - because of files today being often delivered digitally directly from the creating side to the printing side there are no gateways anymore as there were until a couple of years ago in the form of service bureaus that imaged files onto film and, where desired/required, did analogue proofs. This hurts some printers more than others: for example, newspapers are complaining quite often that total ink coverage for ads is sometimes too high, the reason being that some image was converted to CMYK in Photoshop using for example a Euroscale profile. - one of the reasons printers can nevertheless get their presses going somehow and can produce more or less pleasant looking results is that not so professional people often screw up their data in similar ways (so certain heuristics, once found, will compensate for similar problems in most of the files). Nevertheless there are often also pages ending up on the same sheet that have significantly different characteristics. Applying a heuristic to improve one of the pages will deteriorate one of the other pages on the same sheet. - having color management done early on in the food chain by people who do not master it means that a lot of options to get it right again are unretrievably lost. If on the other hand files had been left in their initial color space, more professional people further downstream had better options to convert images/pages to a more reliable, more predictable, more easily producible and nicer result. - also, in terms of overall economy, it is much smarter to have the fewer people at printing plants and associated prepress departments/service bureaus learn to master color management than trying to educate the masses (whose job description most of the time does not include a bit about color reproduction as such) towards some pretty complex matter. Summary: - prefer digital files with as much device independent color retained as possible (though it will always be acceptable if a professional document creator submits device dependent CMYK files - they know what they are doing...) - establish knowledge and equipment at every printer or at a service provider associated with every printer that enables the printer to convert incoming digital files to device dependent data appropriate for the printing process at hand - be pragmatic about the strategy: if files seem to come from professionals, convert 'as is'; if files seem to come from not so professionals, convert them in a way to make them 'as nice/pleasant as possible'. - the ideal format for this is PDF/X-3: it accommodates both device dependent and device independent data in any combination. - also, there are now enough decent tools (with varying degrees of quality and price tag) available - especially iQueue from Gretag Macbeth, SuperColor from Heidelberg, Acrobat 6 Professional from Adobe, Quite A Box Of Tricks from Quite - to easily color convert PDF files to process specific CMYK. Essence: It is not smart to request CMYK files from people who do not understand color. Instead by default postpone color conversion to CMYK as long as possible. Promote PDF/X-3 as the natural carrier for digital files that maintains all options and can handle files from professionals as well as from not so professionals. Olaf Druemmer

20 years, 8 months

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(no subject)

by Toby Burnett

Toby Burnett Xelix Ltd 38 Morgan Way Norwich NR5 9JJ 07968-746901 ********************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail may not be disclosed to, or used by, any person or entity other than the intended recipient(s). It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message from your computer. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is forbidden. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and not those of Xelix Limited. Xelix Limited will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damage as a result of any virus being passed on, or arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party. *********************************************************

20 years, 8 months

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ISO profiles for weboffset

by Jo Brunenberg

Hello Dieter, Thanks for yor quick reply! What would you consider to be an acceptable maximum ink coverage percentage for uncoated paper in heatset offset? Best regards, Jo Brunenberg eci(a)lists.transmedia.de,Internet writes: >Hello, Jo, > >there are none. In ISO 12647-2, there is only one paper type defined >for WebOffset (thats PT3). > >I know that this does not help - but perhaps prevents you from >searching... > >Best regards, > >Dieter > > >Am Mittwoch, 13.08.03, um 09:31 Uhr (Europe/Berlin) schrieb Jo >Brunenberg: > >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> There are ISO webcoated profiles for coated paper in the ECI expert >> package >> but I cannot find ISO weboffset profiles for uncoated paper. >> >> Does anyone know if these exist? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Jo Brunenberg >> LOGIC USE - ROTO SMEETS Met vriendelijke groeten, Jo Brunenberg Senior technology consultant Prepress / ICT LOGIC USE BV (member of Roto Smeets De Boer) phone: ++31 (0)6 22 807 599 fax: ++31 (0)495 570 280 e-mail: jo.brunenberg(a)rsdb.com adress: P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands www: www.logicuse.com - www.rotosmeets.com - www.rsdb.com

20 years, 8 months

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ISO progfiles for weboffset

by Jo Brunenberg

Hi everyone, There are ISO webcoated profiles for coated paper in the ECI expert package but I cannot find ISO weboffset profiles for uncoated paper. Does anyone know if these exist? Best regards, Jo Brunenberg LOGIC USE - ROTO SMEETS

20 years, 8 months

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Tom Galt/Mt Morris/QW1/US is out of the office.

by Tom.Galt＠quebecorworld.com

I will be out of the office starting 08/11/2003 and will not return until 08/18/2003. I will respond to your message when I return.

20 years, 8 months

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ECI-EN August 2003