1. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Jens Trost)
2. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Andreas Kraushaar)
Hello Jens
That is very interesting.
To make this information even more useful, it would be great if they could
add a section for the appropriate Fogra printing standard, - and add the
DE2000 v.s. the target.
Something like this:
LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B Delta E-76 *Delta E2000*
*Category* *Manufacturer* *Measurement D50/2° M1* * Target M1*
PS 1 (Fogra 51) UPM UPM Finesse Premium Silk Coated 96,54 1,91 -5,72 95 1,5
-6 1,62 *1,12* OK
PS 1 (Fogra 51) Sappi Magno Satin, 170 gr. 95,48 1,53 -6,78 95 1,5 -6 0,92
*0,68* OK
PS 1 (Fogra 51) Sappi Magno Star, 170 gr. 94,8 1,4 -6,4 95 1,5 -6 0,47
*0,38* OK
PS 5 (Fogra 52) UPM UPM Fine Uncoated 94,39 3,51 -10,76 93,5 2,5 -10 1,55
*1,40* OK
In general I think it would be a good idea to stop releasing M0 values now
- for color and for paper white. It is not helping anyone. The actual white
point, - i.e. the one you actually *see*, is only revealed when measured
with M1, so 6 years after M1 became the official standard for measurement
of color and paper, I think it is time that printers who are in business
park their M0 devices spectral devices.
It would actually be a good first step to only release M1 values for paper
white (and M2 is also useful information to check the amount of OBA).
It is especially embarrassing for paper manufacturers that obviously want
to be on top of their game and have done their homework and decided years
ago to include D50/2° CIELAB measurements and the relevant Fogra standards
suited for printing on their paper, that their specs still recommend Fogra
39 or Fogra 47 for paper that is in fact not appropriate for printing to
these standards, - unless of course if you continue to ignore the OBA. It
is embarrassing because they themselves put the OBA into the paper pulp
during production.
Best regards
Ingi
mið., 6. mar. 2019 kl. 11:04 skrifaði <
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com>gt;:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
You can reach the person managing the list at
eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Jens Trost)
2. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Andreas Kraushaar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 06:55:47 +0100
From: Jens Trost <newsletter(a)jenstrost.de>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
12647-2-2013
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <371A09F1-5514-4EC6-8F1D-CE299CF57C3C(a)jenstrost.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Ingi,
it may be not exactly what you are looking for, but proof.de just
released a list of various paper whites across many availabe papers.
It's german based so I don't know if it's any help to you, but it's
worth
a look:
https://shop.proof.de/info/paper-white.html
Best regards
Jens
Am 01.03.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Ingi Karlsson
<ingi(a)spot-nordic.com>om>:
Just one small comment on suitable production paper.
It would be nice if paper manufacturers could contribute and send a list
of suited
paper for production printing to Fogra 51 and Fogra 52 by doing
their own measurement with M1, - which would make that paper suited for
printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013.
I have not done a lot of measurements, but the specs I have found about
commercially available papers either have nothing about white point to D50,
- or the measurement is M0 and the suggested profiles for the paper are the
old Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 - based on the M0 measurement (even if the paper is
almost perfectly correct for printing according to the current ISO standard
according to my own measurements). That again means that the paper is in
fact NOT suited for printing according to Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 because of
the OBA that is ignored when measured with the M0 filter.
There are however no doubt papertypes out there that, when measured with
the M1 -
and M0 condition are appropriate for printing according to Fogra
39, Fogra 47.
In fact it would be useful if Fogra would start offering paper
manufacturers to
certify their production paper as suited for commercial
printing according to Fogra 51 / Fogra 52.
It would surely make my life easier if I could
look the suitable papers
up on the Fogra website, - and I'm sure for many
others as well, - even
just color conscious print customers and designers that would prefer to
keep their colors in check cross media.
Best regards and wishing you a nice weekend
Ingi Karlsson
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 06:35:09 +0000
From: Andreas Kraushaar <Kraushaar(a)fogra.org>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
12647-2-2013
To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com"
<eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <1551854100626.54119(a)fogra.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Ingi, all,
we considered such a certification but refrain from starting it for
various reasons:
- limited interest by the manufacturer
- communicate the uncertainty budget for the actual measurements (due to
"normal" device variations) - there is no one CIELAB value for a paper.
- unclear requirements for re-certifications (if the recipes are changed)
- a lot of information by some manufacturer (sometimes unstructured, I
agree)
regards
Andy
________________________________________
Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com <
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> im Auftrag von Jens Trost <
newsletter(a)jenstrost.de>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. M?rz 2019 06:55
An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
12647-2-2013
Hello Ingi,
it may be not exactly what you are looking for, but proof.de just
released a list of various paper whites across many availabe papers.
It's german based so I don't know if it's any help to you, but it's
worth
a look:
https://shop.proof.de/info/paper-white.html
Best regards
Jens
Am 01.03.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Ingi Karlsson
<ingi(a)spot-nordic.com>om>:
Just one small comment on suitable production paper.
It would be nice if paper manufacturers could contribute and send a list
of suited
paper for production printing to Fogra 51 and Fogra 52 by doing
their own measurement with M1, - which would make that paper suited for
printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013.
I have not done a lot of measurements, but the specs I have found about
commercially available papers either have nothing about white point to D50,
- or the measurement is M0 and the suggested profiles for the paper are the
old Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 - based on the M0 measurement (even if the paper is
almost perfectly correct for printing according to the current ISO standard
according to my own measurements). That again means that the paper is in
fact NOT suited for printing according to Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 because of
the OBA that is ignored when measured with the M0 filter.
There are however no doubt papertypes out there that, when measured with
the M1 -
and M0 condition are appropriate for printing according to Fogra
39, Fogra 47.
In fact it would be useful if Fogra would start offering paper
manufacturers to
certify their production paper as suited for commercial
printing according to Fogra 51 / Fogra 52.
It would surely make my life easier if I could
look the suitable papers
up on the Fogra website, - and I'm sure for many
others as well, - even
just color conscious print customers and designers that would prefer to
keep their colors in check cross media.
Best regards and wishing you a nice weekend
Ingi Karlsson
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 87, Issue 5
*************************************