1. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
      (Jens Trost)
   2. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
      (Andreas Kraushaar) 

Hello Jens

That is very interesting. 

To make this information even more useful, it would be great if they could add a section for the appropriate Fogra printing standard, - and add the DE2000 v.s. the target.

Something like this:
 



LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B Delta E-76 Delta E2000












Category Manufacturer Measurement D50/2° M1 Target M1
PS 1 (Fogra 51) UPM UPM Finesse Premium Silk Coated 96,54 1,91 -5,72 95 1,5 -6 1,62 1,12 OK
PS 1 (Fogra 51) Sappi Magno Satin, 170 gr. 95,48 1,53 -6,78 95 1,5 -6 0,92 0,68 OK
PS 1 (Fogra 51) Sappi Magno Star, 170 gr. 94,8 1,4 -6,4 95 1,5 -6 0,47 0,38 OK
























PS 5 (Fogra 52) UPM UPM Fine Uncoated 94,39 3,51 -10,76 93,5 2,5 -10 1,55 1,40 OK

In general I think it would be a good idea to stop releasing M0 values now - for color and for paper white. It is not helping anyone. The actual white point, - i.e. the one you actually see, is only revealed when measured with M1, so 6 years after M1 became the official standard for measurement of color and paper, I think it is time that printers who are in business park their M0 devices spectral devices.

It would actually be a good first step to only release M1 values for paper white (and M2 is also useful information to check the amount of OBA). 
It is especially embarrassing for paper manufacturers that obviously want to be on top of their game and have done their homework and decided years ago to include D50/2° CIELAB measurements and the relevant Fogra standards suited for printing on their paper, that their specs still recommend Fogra 39 or Fogra 47 for paper that is in fact not appropriate for printing to these standards, - unless of course if you continue to ignore the OBA. It is embarrassing because they themselves put the OBA into the paper pulp during production.

Best regards

Ingi


mið., 6. mar. 2019 kl. 11:04 skrifaði <eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
      (Jens Trost)
   2. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
      (Andreas Kraushaar)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 06:55:47 +0100
From: Jens Trost <newsletter@jenstrost.de>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
        12647-2-2013
To: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <371A09F1-5514-4EC6-8F1D-CE299CF57C3C@jenstrost.de>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii

Hello Ingi,

it may be not exactly what you are looking for, but proof.de just released a list of various paper whites across many availabe papers.

It's german based so I don't know if it's any help to you, but it's worth a look:

https://shop.proof.de/info/paper-white.html


Best regards
Jens


> Am 01.03.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Ingi Karlsson <ingi@spot-nordic.com>:
>
> Just one small comment on suitable production paper.
>
> It would be nice if paper manufacturers could contribute and send a list of suited paper for production printing to Fogra 51 and Fogra 52 by doing their own measurement with M1, - which would make that paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013.
>
> I have not done a lot of measurements, but the specs I have found about commercially available papers either have nothing about white point to D50, - or the measurement is M0 and the suggested profiles for the paper are the old Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 - based on the M0 measurement (even if the paper is almost perfectly correct for printing according to the current ISO standard according to my own measurements). That again means that the paper is in fact NOT suited for printing according to Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 because of the OBA that is ignored when measured with the M0 filter.
>
> There are however no doubt papertypes out there that, when measured with the M1 - and M0 condition are appropriate for printing according to Fogra 39, Fogra 47.
>
> In fact it would be useful if Fogra would start offering paper manufacturers to certify their production paper as suited for commercial printing according to Fogra 51 / Fogra 52.
> It would surely make my life easier if I could look the suitable papers up on the Fogra website, - and I'm sure for many others as well, - even just color conscious print customers and designers that would prefer to keep their colors in check cross media.
>
> Best regards and wishing you a nice weekend
>
> Ingi Karlsson



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 06:35:09 +0000
From: Andreas Kraushaar <Kraushaar@fogra.org>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
        12647-2-2013
To: "eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com"
        <eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <1551854100626.54119@fogra.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Ingi, all,

we considered such a certification but refrain from starting it for various reasons:

- limited interest by the manufacturer
- communicate the uncertainty budget for the actual measurements (due to "normal" device variations)  - there is no one CIELAB value for a paper.
- unclear requirements for re-certifications (if the recipes are changed)
- a lot of information by some manufacturer (sometimes unstructured, I agree)

regards
Andy


________________________________________
Von: eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com <eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com> im Auftrag von Jens Trost <newsletter@jenstrost.de>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. M?rz 2019 06:55
An: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013

Hello Ingi,

it may be not exactly what you are looking for, but proof.de just released a list of various paper whites across many availabe papers.

It's german based so I don't know if it's any help to you, but it's worth a look:

https://shop.proof.de/info/paper-white.html


Best regards
Jens


> Am 01.03.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Ingi Karlsson <ingi@spot-nordic.com>:
>
> Just one small comment on suitable production paper.
>
> It would be nice if paper manufacturers could contribute and send a list of suited paper for production printing to Fogra 51 and Fogra 52 by doing their own measurement with M1, - which would make that paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013.
>
> I have not done a lot of measurements, but the specs I have found about commercially available papers either have nothing about white point to D50, - or the measurement is M0 and the suggested profiles for the paper are the old Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 - based on the M0 measurement (even if the paper is almost perfectly correct for printing according to the current ISO standard according to my own measurements). That again means that the paper is in fact NOT suited for printing according to Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 because of the OBA that is ignored when measured with the M0 filter.
>
> There are however no doubt papertypes out there that, when measured with the M1 - and M0 condition are appropriate for printing according to Fogra 39, Fogra 47.
>
> In fact it would be useful if Fogra would start offering paper manufacturers to certify their production paper as suited for commercial printing according to Fogra 51 / Fogra 52.
> It would surely make my life easier if I could look the suitable papers up on the Fogra website, - and I'm sure for many others as well, - even just color conscious print customers and designers that would prefer to keep their colors in check cross media.
>
> Best regards and wishing you a nice weekend
>
> Ingi Karlsson

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