Dear all,
the paper industry has many good reasons to stick with sphere instruments and D65 light
source. Providing in addition M1 values (and dB values) is a communication means that
would be highly appreciated but also keep in mind that these figures vary a bit. What if a
customer measures a sample and complains a colour differences of e.g. dE00=2,1?
There are so many sources of uncertainty (a user errors) that I would not like to work at
the help desk :-)
regards
Andy
PDF Master Class II, Eine Fogra-Schulung mit Stephan Jaeggi am 04.06.2019 und am
4.12.2019
Alles über PDF2.0, PDF/X-6, CxF/X-4, DeviceLink, SmartLink und Multicolor (PDF/X-6n)
https://www.fogra.org/PDF-Next/
—————————————————————————
Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar
Abt. Vorstufentechnik
Fogra
Forschungsinstitut für Medientechnologien e.V.
Einsteinring 1a
85609 Aschheim b. München
Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335
Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100
E-mail: kraushaar(a)fogra.org
Internet:
www.fogra.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Geschäftsführer: Dr. Eduard Neufeld | Sitz des Vereins: Aschheim b. München |
Vereinsregister 4909
________________________________
Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> im Auftrag von Ingi Karlsson
<ingi(a)spot-nordic.com>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 13:17
An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 87, Issue 5
1. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Jens Trost)
2. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Andreas Kraushaar)
Hello Jens
That is very interesting.
To make this information even more useful, it would be great if they could add a section
for the appropriate Fogra printing standard, - and add the DE2000 v.s. the target.
Something like this:
LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B Delta E-76 Delta E2000
Category Manufacturer Measurement D50/2° M1 Target M1
PS 1 (Fogra 51) UPM UPM Finesse Premium Silk Coated 96,54 1,91 -5,72 95
1,5 -6 1,62 1,12 OK
PS 1 (Fogra 51) Sappi Magno Satin, 170 gr. 95,48 1,53 -6,78 95 1,5 -6
0,92 0,68 OK
PS 1 (Fogra 51) Sappi Magno Star, 170 gr. 94,8 1,4 -6,4 95 1,5 -6
0,47 0,38 OK
PS 5 (Fogra 52) UPM UPM Fine Uncoated 94,39 3,51 -10,76 93,5 2,5
-10 1,55 1,40 OK
In general I think it would be a good idea to stop releasing M0 values now - for color and
for paper white. It is not helping anyone. The actual white point, - i.e. the one you
actually see, is only revealed when measured with M1, so 6 years after M1 became the
official standard for measurement of color and paper, I think it is time that printers who
are in business park their M0 devices spectral devices.
It would actually be a good first step to only release M1 values for paper white (and M2
is also useful information to check the amount of OBA).
It is especially embarrassing for paper manufacturers that obviously want to be on top of
their game and have done their homework and decided years ago to include D50/2° CIELAB
measurements and the relevant Fogra standards suited for printing on their paper, that
their specs still recommend Fogra 39 or Fogra 47 for paper that is in fact not appropriate
for printing to these standards, - unless of course if you continue to ignore the OBA. It
is embarrassing because they themselves put the OBA into the paper pulp during
production.
Best regards
Ingi
mið., 6. mar. 2019 kl. 11:04 skrifaði
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Jens Trost)
2. Re: paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
(Andreas Kraushaar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 06:55:47 +0100
From: Jens Trost <newsletter@jenstrost.de<mailto:newsletter@jenstrost.de>>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
12647-2-2013
To: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID:
<371A09F1-5514-4EC6-8F1D-CE299CF57C3C@jenstrost.de<mailto:371A09F1-5514-4EC6-8F1D-CE299CF57C3C@jenstrost.de>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Ingi,
it may be not exactly what you are looking for, but proof.de<http://proof.de> just
released a list of various paper whites across many availabe papers.
It's german based so I don't know if it's any help to you, but it's worth
a look:
https://shop.proof.de/info/paper-white.html
Best regards
Jens
Am 01.03.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Ingi Karlsson
<ingi@spot-nordic.com<mailto:ingi@spot-nordic.com>>:
Just one small comment on suitable production paper.
It would be nice if paper manufacturers could contribute and send a list of suited paper
for production printing to Fogra 51 and Fogra 52 by doing their own measurement with M1, -
which would make that paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013.
I have not done a lot of measurements, but the specs I have found about commercially
available papers either have nothing about white point to D50, - or the measurement is M0
and the suggested profiles for the paper are the old Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 - based on the M0
measurement (even if the paper is almost perfectly correct for printing according to the
current ISO standard according to my own measurements). That again means that the paper is
in fact NOT suited for printing according to Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 because of the OBA that
is ignored when measured with the M0 filter.
There are however no doubt papertypes out there that, when measured with the M1 - and M0
condition are appropriate for printing according to Fogra 39, Fogra 47.
In fact it would be useful if Fogra would start offering paper manufacturers to certify
their production paper as suited for commercial printing according to Fogra 51 / Fogra
52.
It would surely make my life easier if I could look the suitable papers up on the Fogra
website, - and I'm sure for many others as well, - even just color conscious print
customers and designers that would prefer to keep their colors in check cross media.
Best regards and wishing you a nice weekend
Ingi Karlsson
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 06:35:09 +0000
From: Andreas Kraushaar <Kraushaar@fogra.org<mailto:Kraushaar@fogra.org>>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO
12647-2-2013
To:
"eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>"
<eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
Message-ID:
<1551854100626.54119@fogra.org<mailto:1551854100626.54119@fogra.org>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Ingi, all,
we considered such a certification but refrain from starting it for various reasons:
- limited interest by the manufacturer
- communicate the uncertainty budget for the actual measurements (due to
"normal" device variations) - there is no one CIELAB value for a paper.
- unclear requirements for re-certifications (if the recipes are changed)
- a lot of information by some manufacturer (sometimes unstructured, I agree)
regards
Andy
________________________________________
Von:
eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
<eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>
im Auftrag von Jens Trost
<newsletter@jenstrost.de<mailto:newsletter@jenstrost.de>>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. M?rz 2019 06:55
An: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013
Hello Ingi,
it may be not exactly what you are looking for, but proof.de<http://proof.de> just
released a list of various paper whites across many availabe papers.
It's german based so I don't know if it's any help to you, but it's worth
a look:
https://shop.proof.de/info/paper-white.html
Best regards
Jens
Am 01.03.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Ingi Karlsson
<ingi@spot-nordic.com<mailto:ingi@spot-nordic.com>>:
Just one small comment on suitable production paper.
It would be nice if paper manufacturers could contribute and send a list of suited paper
for production printing to Fogra 51 and Fogra 52 by doing their own measurement with M1, -
which would make that paper suited for printing according to ISO 12647-2-2013.
I have not done a lot of measurements, but the specs I have found about commercially
available papers either have nothing about white point to D50, - or the measurement is M0
and the suggested profiles for the paper are the old Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 - based on the M0
measurement (even if the paper is almost perfectly correct for printing according to the
current ISO standard according to my own measurements). That again means that the paper is
in fact NOT suited for printing according to Fogra 39 / Fogra 47 because of the OBA that
is ignored when measured with the M0 filter.
There are however no doubt papertypes out there that, when measured with the M1 - and M0
condition are appropriate for printing according to Fogra 39, Fogra 47.
In fact it would be useful if Fogra would start offering paper manufacturers to certify
their production paper as suited for commercial printing according to Fogra 51 / Fogra
52.
It would surely make my life easier if I could look the suitable papers up on the Fogra
website, - and I'm sure for many others as well, - even just color conscious print
customers and designers that would prefer to keep their colors in check cross media.
Best regards and wishing you a nice weekend
Ingi Karlsson
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