Hi Ken
Your new figures are what I would expect from that range of papers. Few coated
or indeed uncoated paper match the ISO paper types. This is being addressed by
the ISO TC130 committee, but these things seem to that an age.
Re the BPIF/ISO certification scheme, we are not including paper, so regonising
the current position of papers with lots of brighters effecting the b channel.
They are some paper that are to or near to the standard, the Regency range,
Hello is close and Creator also is close.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
By web mail
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
07899 906385
Quoting "Jones, Ken" <ken.jones(a)uk.penguingroup.com>om>:
I have now changed the setting on my SpectroEye to
measure Absolute White
(D50, 2ยบ, no filters, white backing) and have now got a different set of
figures. Are these more what you pros would expect?
The Delta E is still too high in all cases!
L93.49 a0.33 b-2.73 stora 115gsm DeltaE: 6.3
L94.62 a0.9 b-4.74 lumisilk 130gsm DeltaE: 6.5
L93.68 a1.43 b-4.71 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm DeltaE: 7.3
L94.14 a0.2 b-2.96 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm DeltaE: 5.8
Speaking from the print buyer / publishers point of view is there any way of
getting LAB from paper manufacturers or better still a list of common papers
that fall within the Type 1 or Type 2 tolerances?
I ordered the StoreEnso fan (thanks for the tip) but it does not contain LAB
values.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Technical Production Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
From: Paul Sherfield
<paul.sherfield(a)ukonline.co.uk>
Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>om>, <paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:46:43 +0100
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4
Hi
Yes, I agree these Lab values for the papers listed are not correct.
Lumisilk
is
very close to the Type 1 paper figures from my readings, just a little
higher
in
the -b due to the brighters.
I am out of the office at present so have not got the figures to hand.
Paul Sherfield
By web mail
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
07899 906385
Quoting eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> (Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm))
> 2. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization (Roger)
> 3. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3 (Lee Badham)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:20:15 +0200
> From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
> Message-ID:
> <35F02B44B042DA4EBEE4B96DC2F9B67D9EA7(a)bvdm-exch-1.bvdm-online.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7"
>
> Ken,
>
> for comparison purposes, please indicate exact papers (stora 115gsm?) and
> complete, (standard compliant) settings of your SpectroEye measurements,
such
> as
> Illuminant (D50/2), observer 45/0 0/45, pol. filter (no), UV-cut filter
(no),
> backing (wb) etc.
>
> L* values seem to be very high, b* values rather low, compared to typical
> CIELAB data of type 1 papers.
>
> Best regards
> Karl Michael Meinecke
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of
>> Jones, Ken
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:20 AM
>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast
>> majority of papers we use as a book publisher are not
>> matching the ISO12647-2 Type 1 paper colour target of L95 a0
>> b-2 (white backing) One one hand we are stating that we
>> require all our printers to now print to
>> FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different
>> papers which may or may not be matching the paper white for
>> that standard.
>>
>> Is this a case of double 'standards'?
>>
>> Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
>>
>> stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6 lumisilk 130gsm
>> - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm -
>> L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94
>> a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
>>
>> As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth
>> all these papers fail!
>>
>> I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on
>> press sheets which apparently has an allowance built in for
>> different paper colours. I'm told it will sample the paper
>> colour and then adjust the target colours slightly so we can
>> still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers that
>> stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to
>> get around this real life problem or actually going to
>> introduce different targets and therefore different final
>> colours depending on the paper used?
>>
>> Discuss :)
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ken Jones
>> Technical Production Manager
>>
>> Penguin Group (UK)
>> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
>> Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
>>
>>
>>> From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de>
>>> Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:47 +0200
>>> To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>om>,
<homann(a)colormanagement.de>
>>> Conversation: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
>>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
>>>
>>> Roger, all,
>>>
>>> allocation of papers to reference printing conditions
>> (recommendations
>>> of paper manufacturers) already exist.
>>>
>>> Example: Stora Enso
www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009
>> (order free
>>> of charge via website)
>>>
>>
www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/
> Pages/pres
>>> s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
>>>
>>> The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
>>> Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO
>> and Gravure
>>> papers.
>>> L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers
>> are provided as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
>>> customers.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Karl Michael
>>>
>>> Karl Michael Meinecke
>>> Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
>>> German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
>>> Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
>>> Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68
>>> mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL
www.bvdm-online.de
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>>> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
>>>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de
>>>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
>>>>
>>>> Jan-Peter,
>>>>
>>>> How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the
>>>> information "which reference gamut should be applied to his
>>>> papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque!
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>>>> The paper supplier should provide the information which reference
>>>>> gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print
>>>>> buyers which are familiar with colormanagement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>> Jan-Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ECI-EN mailing list
>>>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>>>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ECI-EN mailing list
>>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>>
>>
>>
>> This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc,
>> registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL.
>> Registered in England and Wales with company number 53723
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:44:01 -0400
> From: Roger <graxx(a)videotron.ca>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> Message-ID: <009501c9f4da$36d534c0$a47f9e40$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Ken,
>
> I have a hard time with the exceptionally high L* values? The highest I
ever
> seen was 96. But you have 99.94? Even if you
measure on white backing,
this
> is still too extreme. Is your SpectroEye
photometric scale off? Even when
I
> switch the UV filter on my SpectroEye, here,
I can never get such super
high
> L* readings.
>
> To come back to your discussion, I personally would not change the target
> colors to account for the various substrate properties. It's an idea
worth
> discussing but I think it is the wrong
approach. Otherwise, everyone is
going
> to start to claim ISO conformance but
we'll all have slightly different
ink
> colors. To me, the solids and overprints CIE
Lab values are absolute and
> should not be modified in any way, shape or form since, with the right
inks,
> they are not that very difficult to come by,
on a variety of PT1
variants.
Matte
papers are a different story...
Best / Roger
stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all these
papers
fail!
I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
sheets
which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper colours.
I'm
told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target colours
slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers
that
stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get around
this
real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
Discuss :)
Thanks
Ken Jones
Technical Production Manager
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:11:54 +0100
From: Lee Badham <lee.b(a)bodoni.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <D53704A1-381C-41E6-B578-94A0620C79F2(a)bodoni.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi,
Looking at at those lab values, it seems that there is something
wrong. You cannot get a reflective lab value with an L value greater
than 100.
So either:
The spectroeye needs calibrating.
You are using relative white Lab values
I don't think changing the Illuminant, Angle, or Polarization would
ever give those values.
Lee Badham
Hi All
I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast majority
of
papers we use as a book publisher are not matching the ISO12647-2
Type 1
paper colour target of L95 a0 b-2 (white backing)
One one hand we are stating that we require all our printers to now
print to
FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different papers
which
may or may not be matching the paper white for that standard.
Is this a case of double 'standards'?
Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6
lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5
sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7
Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1
As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth all
these papers
fail!
I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
sheets
which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper
colours. I'm
told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target
colours
slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for
papers that
stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get
around this
real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
Discuss :)
Thanks
Ken Jones
Technical Production Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
Bodoni Systems Ltd
------------------------------
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