2:40 p.m.
Hello list,
sorry for posting my e-mail about SC / MFC a second time. This was not
intended.
...
Thanks Paul and Roger for the reply.
If we are looking at current paper categorization delivered by the paper
suppliers, this paper categorization is based on how are the papers
produced and may which paperwhite they have.
The same direction is at ISO 12647-2 (coated, LWC, uncoated...). The PSO
introduces more additional papertypes also categorized , on how the
papers are produced. (SC, MFC...)
If we reach (with the same printing technology - e.g. heatset) on
different papers the same gamut / paperwhite, I don´t think it makes
sense to create different characterization-data / ICC profiles.
From my point of view, a future print standardization (ISO 12647-, PSO
G7...) should concentrate on a handful reference gamuts.
The paper supplier should provide the information which reference gamut
should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print buyers
which are familiar with colormanagement.
This would allow both print buyer an printer to agree in advance on a
handful of standard references and profiles for the prepress workflow.
On of my heatset customers is currently preparing to put the information
about reference printing condition / reference profiles into his MIS
(Management Information System). This would allow, that every offer to a
customer will include automatically the necessary informations for the
proofing standard / separation profile / PDF/X output intent based on
the choosen papertypy.
In the first try the printer made a list with
- FOGRA40 / SC_paper_eci.icc for all SC-papers
- FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_paper_eci.icc for all MFC papers
Now we are switching all white SC papers also to FOGRA41 /
PSO_MFC_paper_eci.icc an will use a description like:
"separation, PDF/X data delivery and proofing for MFC and white
SC-papers according FOGRA41 / PSO_MFC_paper_eci.icc"
Best regards
Jan-Peter
--
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
3:46 p.m.
Hi Jan-Peter,
while possibly not your original intention to put the focus on, I
believe that the following:
On 23 Jun 2009, at 14:40, Jan-Peter Homann wrote:
On of my heatset customers is currently preparing to
put the
information
about reference printing condition / reference profiles into his MIS
(Management Information System). This would allow, that every offer
to a
customer will include automatically the necessary informations for the
proofing standard / separation profile / PDF/X output intent based on
the choosen papertypy.
is the most interesting part (at least from my personal point of view/
for me) of your email.
If printers (and publishers) would more actively (and more
automatically) communicate about the printing condition against which
to prepare files, life would become much easier for many. This would
also work beautifully whether we have a handful of printing
conditions.gamuts, or maybe even ten or twenty - it would become so
much easier for everyone in the production chain to get things right
(and to add more automation to the process - on the creator and sender
side as well as with intermediate steps and then finally the printer).
I can only applaud the strategy of the heat-set web-offset printer you
mention, and hope that others will follow!
Olaf
--
Olaf Druemmer | Managing Director | callas software GmbH |
Schoenhauser Allee 6/7 | 10119 Berlin
Tel +49.30.4439031-0 | Fax +49.30.4416402 | o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com
| www.callassoftware.com
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 59615 | Geschäftsführung: Olaf
Drümmer, Ulrich Frotscher
6:52 p.m.
Jan-Peter,
How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the information "which
reference gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers"? Das ist
eine blind cheque!
Roger
The paper supplier should provide the information
which reference
gamut
should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print buyers
which are familiar with colormanagement.
Best regards
Jan-Peter
7:40 p.m.
Hi Roger, hi list
A paper manufacturer / supplier could help his customers by
- deliver a list of all papers incl. the fitting printing condition /
icc profile.
(This is technically not a big step, as paper manufacturers make
internal testprints, tests for Ink absorbation etc.. which gives a lot
of internal information about the relative gamuts of his papers (related
to the relative gamuts of the reference printing conditions..)
- creating some additional reference printing conditions, if e.g. some
papers have a paperwhite which is quite different compared to avialable
reference printing conditions. e,g,:
- improved newsprint
- recycling paper
Such additional reference printing conditions could e.g registered at
the ICC website and both publishers and printers could easily refer to
this additional printing condition recommended by the paper manufacturer
/ supplier.
Best regards
Jan-Peter
Roger wrote:
Jan-Peter,
How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the information "which
reference gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers"? Das ist
eine blind cheque!
Roger
--
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
The paper supplier should provide the
information which reference
gamut
should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print buyers
which are familiar with colormanagement.
Best regards
Jan-Peter
7:40 p.m.
Roger, all,
allocation of papers to reference printing conditions (recommendations
of paper manufacturers) already exist.
Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009 (order free
of charge via website)
www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/Pages/pres
s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO and Gravure
papers.
L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers are provided as
well.
This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
customers.
Best regards
Karl Michael
Karl Michael Meinecke
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68
mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm-online.de
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Jan-Peter,
How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the
information "which reference gamut should be applied to his
papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque!
Roger
The paper supplier should provide the
information which reference
gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print
buyers which are familiar with colormanagement.
Best regards
Jan-Peter
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
8:52 p.m.
Guten tag alles,
I ordered meine copy. We'll see how useful is this information.
Danke shoën / Roger
Roger, all,
allocation of papers to reference printing conditions (recommendations
of paper manufacturers) already exist.
Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009 (order free
of charge via website)
www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-
brochures/Pages/pres
s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO and Gravure
papers.
L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers are provided
as
well.
This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
customers.
Best regards
Karl Michael
11:19 a.m.
Hi All
I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast majority of
papers we use as a book publisher are not matching the ISO12647-2 Type 1
paper colour target of L95 a0 b-2 (white backing)
One one hand we are stating that we require all our printers to now print to
FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different papers which
may or may not be matching the paper white for that standard.
Is this a case of double 'standards'?
Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ΔE 4.6
lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ΔE 5.5
sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ΔE 4.7
Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ΔE 5.1
As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ΔE of 3 so in truth all these papers
fail!
I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press sheets
which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper colours. I'm
told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target colours
slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers that
stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get around this
real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
Discuss :)
Thanks
Ken Jones
Technical Production Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)"
<km(a)bvdm-online.de>
Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:47 +0200
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>om>, <homann(a)colormanagement.de>
Conversation: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Roger, all,
allocation of papers to reference printing conditions (recommendations
of paper manufacturers) already exist.
Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009 (order free
of charge via website)
www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/Pages/pres
s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO and Gravure
papers.
L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers are provided as
well.
This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
customers.
Best regards
Karl Michael
Karl Michael Meinecke
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68
mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm-online.de
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at 80 Strand,
London WC2R 0RL.
Registered in England and Wales with company number 53723
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Jan-Peter,
How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the
information "which reference gamut should be applied to his
papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque!
Roger
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en The paper supplier should provide the
information which reference
gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print
buyers which are familiar with colormanagement.
Best regards
Jan-Peter
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
3:20 p.m.
Ken,
for comparison purposes, please indicate exact papers (stora 115gsm?) and complete,
(standard compliant) settings of your SpectroEye measurements, such as
Illuminant (D50/2), observer 45/0 0/45, pol. filter (no), UV-cut filter (no), backing (wb)
etc.
L* values seem to be very high, b* values rather low, compared to typical CIELAB data of
type 1 papers.
Best regards
Karl Michael Meinecke
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of
Jones, Ken
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:20 AM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Hi All
I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast
majority of papers we use as a book publisher are not
matching the ISO12647-2 Type 1 paper colour target of L95 a0
b-2 (white backing) One one hand we are stating that we
require all our printers to now print to
FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different
papers which may or may not be matching the paper white for
that standard.
Is this a case of double 'standards'?
Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye
stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ΔE 4.6 lumisilk 130gsm
- L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ΔE 5.5 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm -
L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ΔE 4.7 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94
a-0.59 b-0.91 - ΔE 5.1
As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ΔE of 3 so in truth
all these papers fail!
I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on
press sheets which apparently has an allowance built in for
different paper colours. I'm told it will sample the paper
colour and then adjust the target colours slightly so we can
still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers that
stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to
get around this real life problem or actually going to
introduce different targets and therefore different final
colours depending on the paper used?
Discuss :)
Thanks
Ken Jones
Technical Production Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136
Pages/pres
From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)"
<km(a)bvdm-online.de>
Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:47 +0200
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>om>, <homann(a)colormanagement.de>
Conversation: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Roger, all,
allocation of papers to reference printing conditions
(recommendations
of paper manufacturers) already exist.
Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009
(order free
of charge via website)
www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/
s-selection-brochures-set.aspx
The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour
Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO
and Gravure
papers.
L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers
are provided as
well.
This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers,
customers.
Best regards
Karl Michael
Karl Michael Meinecke
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68
mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm-online.de
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc,
registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL.
Registered in England and Wales with company number 53723
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization
Jan-Peter,
How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the
information "which reference gamut should be applied to his
papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque!
Roger
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en The paper supplier should provide the
information which reference
gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print
buyers which are familiar with colormanagement.
Best regards
Jan-Peter
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
4:44 p.m.
Ken,
I have a hard time with the exceptionally high L* values? The highest I ever seen was 96.
But you have 99.94? Even if you measure on white backing, this is still too extreme. Is
your SpectroEye photometric scale off? Even when I switch the UV filter on my SpectroEye,
here, I can never get such super high L* readings.
To come back to your discussion, I personally would not change the target colors to
account for the various substrate properties. It's an idea worth discussing but I
think it is the wrong approach. Otherwise, everyone is going to start to claim ISO
conformance but we'll all have slightly different ink colors. To me, the solids and
overprints CIE Lab values are absolute and should not be modified in any way, shape or
form since, with the right inks, they are not that very difficult to come by, on a variety
of PT1 variants. Matte papers are a different story...
Best / Roger
stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ΔE 4.6
lumisilk 130gsm - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ΔE 5.5
sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ΔE 4.7
Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 a-0.59 b-0.91 - ΔE 5.1
As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ΔE of 3 so in truth all these
papers
fail!
I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on press
sheets
which apparently has an allowance built in for different paper colours.
I'm
told it will sample the paper colour and then adjust the target colours
slightly so we can still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers
that
stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to get around
this
real life problem or actually going to introduce different targets and
therefore different final colours depending on the paper used?
Discuss :)
Thanks
Ken Jones
Technical Production Manager
5443
days inactive
5444
days old
eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
8 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Jan-Peter Homann -
Jones, Ken -
Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm) -
Olaf Drümmer -
Roger