From: Paul Sherfield <paul.sherfield(a)ukonline.co.uk> Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>om>, <paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:46:43 +0100 To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4 Hi Yes, I agree these Lab values for the papers listed are not correct.

is very close to the Type 1 paper figures from my readings, just a little

in the -b due to the brighters. I am out of the office at present so have not got the figures to hand. Paul Sherfield By web mail The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd 07899 906385 Quoting eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com: > Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization > (Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)) > 2. Re: FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization (Roger) > 3. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 36, Issue 3 (Lee Badham) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:20:15 +0200 > From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" <km(a)bvdm-online.de> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization > To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com> > Message-ID: > <35F02B44B042DA4EBEE4B96DC2F9B67D9EA7(a)bvdm-exch-1.bvdm-online.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" > > Ken, > > for comparison purposes, please indicate exact papers (stora 115gsm?) and > complete, (standard compliant) settings of your SpectroEye measurements,

> as > Illuminant (D50/2), observer 45/0 0/45, pol. filter (no), UV-cut filter

> backing (wb) etc. > > L* values seem to be very high, b* values rather low, compared to typical > CIELAB data of type 1 papers. > > Best regards > Karl Michael Meinecke > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of >> Jones, Ken >> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:20 AM >> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization >> >> Hi All >> >> I too am interested in this subject. It seems that the vast >> majority of papers we use as a book publisher are not >> matching the ISO12647-2 Type 1 paper colour target of L95 a0 >> b-2 (white backing) One one hand we are stating that we >> require all our printers to now print to >> FOGRA39 but then asking them to print on a range of different >> papers which may or may not be matching the paper white for >> that standard. >> >> Is this a case of double 'standards'? >> >> Some tests done on common papers we use with a SpectroEye >> >> stora 115gsm - L99.25 a-0.36 b-0.31 - ?E 4.6 lumisilk 130gsm >> - L100.54 a0.1 b-2.14 - ?E 5.5 sappi quatro matt art 115gsm - >> L99.6 0.a71 b-2.14 - ?E 4.7 Hi-Q matt art 128gsm - L99.94 >> a-0.59 b-0.91 - ?E 5.1 >> >> As I understand it ISO12647-2 has a max ?E of 3 so in truth >> all these papers fail! >> >> I am using the Bodoni pressSIGN software to assess colours on >> press sheets which apparently has an allowance built in for >> different paper colours. I'm told it will sample the paper >> colour and then adjust the target colours slightly so we can >> still have a useful test whilst allowing for papers that >> stray outside the standard. Is this the intelligent way to >> get around this real life problem or actually going to >> introduce different targets and therefore different final >> colours depending on the paper used? >> >> Discuss :) >> >> Thanks >> Ken Jones >> Technical Production Manager >> >> Penguin Group (UK) >> 80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL >> Direct Dial +44 (0)20 7010 4136 >> >> >>> From: "Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)" &lt;km(a)bvdm-online.de&gt; >>> Reply-To: &lt;eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt; >>> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:47 +0200 >>> To: &lt;eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt;om>, &lt;homann(a)colormanagement.de&gt; >>> Conversation: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization >>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization >>> >>> Roger, all, >>> >>> allocation of papers to reference printing conditions >> (recommendations >>> of paper manufacturers) already exist. >>> >>> Example: Stora Enso www.stora.com, press selection fan 2009 >> (order free >>> of charge via website) >>> >> www.storaenso.com/products/publication-papers/order-brochures/ > Pages/pres >>> s-selection-brochures-set.aspx >>> >>> The press selection fan contains - among other info - Colour >>> Profile/CharData recommendations (bvdm/ECI/Fogra) for HSWO >> and Gravure >>> papers. >>> L*a*b* coordinates (D50/2 - ISO 5631-3) for these papers >> are provided as >>> well. >>> >>> This is a pragmatic approach and valuable information for printers, >>> customers. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Karl Michael >>> >>> Karl Michael Meinecke >>> Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) >>> German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm) >>> Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden >>> Fon +49(0)611 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 80 32 68 >>> mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm-online.de >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com >>>> [mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:53 PM >>>> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com; homann(a)colormanagement.de >>>> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization >>>> >>>> Jan-Peter, >>>> >>>> How, technically, could the paper supplier provide the >>>> information "which reference gamut should be applied to his >>>> papers to the printers"? Das ist eine blind cheque! >>>> >>>> Roger >>>> >>>>> The paper supplier should provide the information which reference >>>>> gamut should be applied to his papers to the printers an big print >>>>> buyers which are familiar with colormanagement. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> Jan-Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ECI-EN mailing list >>>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com >>>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ECI-EN mailing list >>> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com >>> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >> >> >> >> This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, >> registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. >> Registered in England and Wales with company number 53723 >> _______________________________________________ >> ECI-EN mailing list >> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:44:01 -0400 > From: Roger &lt;graxx(a)videotron.ca&gt; > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] FOGRA40 SC / 41 MFC paper categorization > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com > Message-ID: <009501c9f4da$36d534c0$a47f9e40$@ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Ken, > > I have a hard time with the exceptionally high L* values? The highest I

> seen was 96. But you have 99.94? Even if you measure on white backing,

> is still too extreme. Is your SpectroEye photometric scale off? Even when

> switch the UV filter on my SpectroEye, here, I can never get such super

> L* readings. > > To come back to your discussion, I personally would not change the target > colors to account for the various substrate properties. It's an idea

> discussing but I think it is the wrong approach. Otherwise, everyone is

> to start to claim ISO conformance but we'll all have slightly different

> colors. To me, the solids and overprints CIE Lab values are absolute and > should not be modified in any way, shape or form since, with the right

> they are not that very difficult to come by, on a variety of PT1

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