Hello all
In discussion with several customers I have also tried to spread knowledge
of this standard. One of the problems is that to which version should I
refer to - the old (1996) or the new one. I would prefer the new one but is
that yet the official version - does anyone know?
According to ISO web pages it is on stage "60.00 - International Standard
under publication" - does someone know the exact publication day?
Best Regards Jouni Marttila
_________________________________________
Jouni Marttila
Project Manager
M-real Corporation
Technology Centre Kirkniemi
FIN-08800 KIRKNIEMI
Finland
Tel: +358 (0)10 464 2908
Fax: +358 (0)10 464 2412
Mobile: +358 (0)50 381 9085
Email: jouni.marttila(a)m-real.com
www.m-real.com
Hello
ISO 12647 in the UK? Well I have used successfully with a number of clients,
many publishers and government.
This has been as part of a colour managed workflow where the printer was not
chosen prior to page creation, so a standard printing condition and ICC
profile for images was needed.
In each case the approved printers have been 'encouraged' to set their
prepress and presses to meet the ISO coated type 1 paper conditions, and
their proofing also using the Altona Suite and Media Wedge.
In all cases this route has proved successful, even the printers that showed
some reluctance at first now like the standardisation. They say it gives
them control over the process, and a systemised method for problem solving.
However, now the bad news. In general in the UK there is little or no
knowledge of the standard. Indeed the PPA, the UK publishers association is
developing it's own digital proofing standard, based I believe, on a Dupont
Chromalin reference!
Many people in the UK feel this to be an incorrect approach, and ISO 12647/2
standard printing conditions and the Altona Suite would better serve this
purpose in a more open and standards based way.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Hi,
It seems the best thing to do when most clients don't know what type of
cmyk they want is to do what Graeme Bulcraig is doing, namely to supply
ECI either coated or ISO web coated. That way the ECI standard gets the
most exposure with the least hassle.
I am presuming that most people are now saving the eci profile (or any
cmyk profile) after they have converted?
Cheers,
Daniel.
Judd Perring wrote:
> We battle educating GMG users who wish to use a "propritory standard for
> Inkjet proofing" in the UK, and
> im sure you know what these are. Me being politically correct!
Hi Judd
Surely we can use the 'D' and 'C' words on this list :-)
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Hello, all. I'm based in the US, and have
followed the work of the ECI. Being an American,
it is my nature to antagonize Europeans with
provocative notions. So here goes :-)
The latest release of ISO-12647-2 specifies solid
ink levels with colorimetry, and specifies tone
reproduction curves using graphs. These changes
seem good on the surface, but raise new issues.
1. The color of a solid ink depends on the paper,
the ink, and the ink film thickness. When the
color of the paper varies, how does that affect
the intended color of the solid ink?
2. Color is a three dimensional measure, but the
pressman has just one control, ink film
thickness. Generally, it won't be possible to
achieve the exact color specified by adjusting
ink film thickness. The pressman will have to
estimate the best match, based on three varying
quantities. This will be very frustrating for a
pressman.
3. The tone reproduction curves are shown
graphically, but there is no table or formula
that would enable us to enter values into a CtP
system.
4. The tone reproduction curves vary with screen
ruling. Is this really a good idea?
5. The tone reproduction curves are specified
using TVI, which is a density based measurement.
So, while the solids are specified
colorimetrically, other values still rely on
densitometry.
I set up a proofing system using the FOGRA27
characterization data, and found some differences
compared to typical practice in the US. The tone
curves have lower highlight contrast. I imagine
this is due to the past popularity of positive
plates in Europe versus negative plates in the
US. Also, the color balance is a bit cooler. Gray
balance triplets are basically the same in ISO as
here, so I can't explain this difference.
So, could we use ISO 12647-2 in the US?
We need to bring colorimetry into the pressroom,
but with single valued measurements. Tone
reproduction curves could eliminate a great deal
of variation, if used properly. But, TVI is an
outdated concept. We need a better (and simpler)
solution for creating TRCs.
Currently, there is no interest whatsoever in
color-managed workflows in the US. The ideas
behind PDF/X-3 have no following here. Printers
work with CMYK + spot files. The change from film
to CtP has brought with it color anarchy. Each
printer has created their own color standard,
which is based on whatever considerations seem
logical to that firm. It is normal practice for a
printer to make their own proofs of supplied
files, then do color corrections before putting a
job on press. Sometimes clients pay for this,
otherwise the printer eats the cost. This is
incredibly wasteful, but an accepted practice. In
some cases, quality expectations have dropped to
keep costs in check. In many cases, printing has
become a commodity to be bought on price alone.
So, there is an acute need for standards here,
but few comprehend it. This is a fine example of
the "boiled-frog theory." I applaud the Europeans
on their standardization efforts. The Altona test
kit is a great accomplishment. I'd like to see
similar work done in the US.
-Bill
>Since the Altona Application Package, the ISO
>12647-2 is now known at a much broader front.
>Some seminars and workshops are held in Germany
>and Austria to educate and emphasize the
>pre-print and print people out there, as well as
>print buyers, to also show and give guidance how
>to work with it on a daily basis.
>
>I would be very interested on some feedback from
>other countries than Germany and Austria, how
>this standard is adopted. And if someone is not
>working with it, my question is: Why? It is not
>a DIN-Standard or a Ö-Norm Standard, it is an
>ISO-Standard which means International (no one
>excluded).
>
>Again: I am talking here about ISO 12647:
>Graphic technology- Process control for the
>production of half-tone colour separations,
>proof and production prints
>Part 2: the offset process, working with AM-Screens at 60 lpi.
>
>Please tell about the good sides, as well as
>what is going wrong, and also about your
>expectations and the real life in print
>production.
>
>best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen
>Peter Kleinheider
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Peter
that would be fantastic
an English translation of the German ECI discussions would be very uesful
perhaps an automated online translation service like
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr
wouild get you started, I'm sure it's not going to work for tech words tho.
admin(a)eci.org (ECI.org Admin)::16/11/04::7:18 pm:: GMT+0100
>Hi everyone
>
>Indeed, it is very quiet here. It would be great if the posters on the
>German site (or some volunteer) could translate these requests into
>english so not only the german capable readers and writers can take
>usage out of all the information given there.
>I also understand that if someone is not fluent in english, or has just
>enough practice to read some english lists, might not be able doing
>this.
>
>What I will try in the future is to translate the requests as good as
>possible into english so a larger discussion could start - and maybe
>also I can get better in writing english ;-)
>
>best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen
>Peter Kleinheider
>ECI-Admin
Best Regards
Neil Barstow
Consulting in Imaging & Colour Management
http://www.colourmanagement.net/http://www.apple.com/uk/creative/neilbarstow/
Babelfish doesn't work for most things though.
--
Sean M. Sloane Madrid, España
ten thousand +34 680 781 946
sean(a)ten000.com
http://www.ten000.com/
> From: Neil Barstow <info(a)neilbarstow.co.uk>
> Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de>
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:15:31 +0000
> To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going
>
> Peter
>
> that would be fantastic
>
> an English translation of the German ECI discussions would be very uesful
> perhaps an automated online translation service like
> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr
>
> wouild get you started, I'm sure it's not going to work for tech words tho.
>
> admin(a)eci.org (ECI.org Admin)::16/11/04::7:18 pm:: GMT+0100
>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> Indeed, it is very quiet here. It would be great if the posters on the
>> German site (or some volunteer) could translate these requests into
>> english so not only the german capable readers and writers can take
>> usage out of all the information given there.
>> I also understand that if someone is not fluent in english, or has just
>> enough practice to read some english lists, might not be able doing
>> this.
>>
>> What I will try in the future is to translate the requests as good as
>> possible into english so a larger discussion could start - and maybe
>> also I can get better in writing english ;-)
>>
>> best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen
>> Peter Kleinheider
>> ECI-Admin
>
> Best Regards
>
> Neil Barstow
> Consulting in Imaging & Colour Management
> http://www.colourmanagement.net/
> http://www.apple.com/uk/creative/neilbarstow/
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de
> http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have received no postings; is there anyone out there????
Kind regards
Matt Littler
Technical Sales Executive
Nova Darkroom and Permajet
http://www.novadarkroom.comhttp://www.permajet.com
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