November 2004 - ECI-EN - lists.callassoftware.com

RE: [ECI-EN] (OT) Question about an english word

by Andrei Sarbu

Hello, Maybe your customer wants to know the grip regarding the paper (max printed area on a specified sheed - ex. 500x700mm) Regards, Andrei Sarbu -----Original Message----- From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Joachim Euler Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 10:23 AM To: ECI-EN Subject: [ECI-EN] (OT) Question about an english word Hello, one of our customers is negotiating a contract at the moment, and all the communication is in English language. I was able to help them out with most of the phrases they didn't understand, but there's one word which is beyond my "built-in dictionary":-) In the graphics industry, what does "grip" mean? -- We almost certainly do not speak of the gripper of a printing press which is totally irrelevant here as we will be imaging the plates in our shop. The customer wants to know "the maximun and minimun grip"... Thanks for any help! Best regards, Jo Euler -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Kriftel Joachim Euler GATF-accredited ColorSync Consultant *** ACHTUNG: Neue Mobiltelefonnummer ab 2004-11-09 *** *** Neue E-Mail-Adresse ab 2004-11-17 *** PMG computer to plate GmbH Gutenbergstraße 2-4 65830 Kriftel T: +49 6192-406-615 F: +49 6192-406-670 M: +49 163-8793142 jeuler.pmgctp(a)datahighways.de _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

19 years, 5 months

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which delta E to use?

by Yann Bouckaert

Hello, I'm in the middle of a project to get a customer print to ISO 12647-2:2003 on a web press using paper type 3. I let them print a density wedge in order to find the best matching Lab and density values. The paper is whithin spec. Right now I have a list of 100 values, for magenta going from D 1.13 to 1.82 . I measured the density of the patches in wet condition with a X-Rite 500 seriesdensitometer (pol-filter), dry Lab values were obtained with a Gretag Spectrolino, white backing (two sheets of Best Remoteproof paper), no filter. If I look for the lowest Delta E 1976, the value I get for magenta is 6.11, which means density 1.44, and also means out of tolerance. The lowest Delta E 1998 is 1.73, meaning D = 1.31. Other Delta E specs, like 2000, CMC (1:1) or CMC (2:1) give me similar low values. Which Delta E should I use? Sincerely, Yann Bouckaert Sagam NV Drongen, Belgium

19 years, 5 months

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AW: AW: [ECI-EN] UVI print question

by Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)

George, at least in some cases ISO Central Secretariat was not able to supply a published ISO/DIS Standard :-( Karl Michael Meinecke bvdm -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: George Battrick [mailto:georgebattrick@era.eu.org] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. November 2004 15:09 An: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Betreff: Re: AW: [ECI-EN] UVI print question Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm) wrote: > ISO 12647-6 (flexo) is published by now as > *ISO/DIS 12647-6, Edition:2004-04*. > It might be not available in some countries/standards organizations. If not available from national standards organisations, ISO standards can be bought from the ISO Central Secretariat in Switzerland (www.iso.org). George Battrick ERA _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

19 years, 5 months

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AW: [ECI-EN] UVI print question

by Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)

ISO 12647-6 (flexo) is published by now as *ISO/DIS 12647-6, Edition:2004-04*. It might be not available in some countries/standards organizations. Kind Regards Karl Michael Meinecke bvdm -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: ip PSP [mailto:ip@es-psp.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. November 2004 12:08 An: eci Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] UVI print question El 23/11/04 19:58, "Olaf Drümmer" <o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com> escribió: > For your personal you can do whatever you wish - nevertheless I'd > recommend against renaming the profiles as it will easily create > unnecessary confusion. > > In any case you are not allowed to distribute modified versions of the > profile. > > If you feel you need to brew your own thing, you can still use the FOGRA > measurement data and create your own profiles. > > Olaf Druemmer > Chairman European Color Initative > > paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk wrote Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:02:53 +0000 > >> Hi >> >> Is one allowed to edit or rename the ISO CMYK profiles? >> >> Regards >> >> Paul Sherfield >> >> >> >> >> The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd >> >> Telephone: 01442 871752 >> Mobile: 07899 906385 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ECI-EN mailing list >> ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >> http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ECI-EN mailing list > ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de > http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en I've been talking with my customer and we've thought that we can make our own printing test with the ISO 12647-2 and 12647-6 specifications or rules as the begining but never editing an ISO ICC Profile. Regards Leon B. Garcia PSP Proveedores de Servicios de Preimpresion / Pre-press Services Providers ip(a)es-psp.com +34 911 450 100 Spain _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

19 years, 5 months

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RE: ECI-EN digest, Vol 1 #127 - 1 msg

by Nadish Naoroji

>A good picture should not have a 255/255/255 Black Someone made the comment above. Surely Black is 0/0/0 and white is 255/255/255. Not sure where this is taking us. Why should black not be (in RGB) 0/0/0 ??? -- Message protected by MailGuard: e-mail anti-virus, anti-spam and content filtering. http://www.mailguard.com.au/mg

19 years, 5 months

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RE: Feedback of ISO 12647 (Julio García-Maroto)

by CIT-AGM

Hi all, Comments on ISO 12647-2 in Spain. Pros: - There is a growing concern about colour management. Our company organizes seminars on colour management and they have been quite crowded in 2004. - The standardization effort in Spain: AENOR-54 (national standardization committee for the printing Industry) is active in translating ISO standards into Spanish. As current members of this committee, we would like it be more productive, but this is very difficult given that all members do it for free, in spare hours. - The quality of colour management consultancy is quite high: there is a number of experienced consultants that is capable of doing a good job on companies willing to use ISO 12647-2 Cons: - Most of the information is not in Spanish. You have mentioned that ECI's English list has little traffic compared to the German one. You con multiply this by 2-3 in order to get an idea of the information that reaches printing companies in Spain. - It is not a client-driven demand. I have read that certain clients (e.g. Ikea) ask printers to comply with certain standards before they can start working for them. I don't know of any company doing this in Spain. We all should be able to "educate" clients about the benefits of this standard Conclusions: ISO 12647-2, standard printing conditions and the Altona Suite are known by a growing number of companies but few are currently using them. However, the trend is positive. PS: Welcome to the list, Matt! What is the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England? Julio García-Maroto cit-agm(a)infoagm.com Managing Director CIT-AGM Spanish Graphic Art Technological Centre www.cit-agm.com -----Mensaje original----- De: eci-en-request(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-request@lists.transmedia.de] Enviado el: miércoles, 17 de noviembre de 2004 12:00 Para: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Asunto: ECI-EN digest, Vol 1 #121 - 13 msgs Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eci-en-request(a)lists.transmedia.de You can reach the person managing the list at eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Matt Littler) 2. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Uwe Laubender) 3. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Bill Birkett) 4. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Johannes Hoffstadt) 5. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Sean Sloane) 6. Automatic vacation notification (ECI.org Admin) 7. Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome (ECI.org Admin) 8. Invitation to everyone to get this list going (ECI.org Admin) 9. Re: Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome (Bill Birkett) 10. Re: Invitation to everyone to get this list going (Neil Barstow) 11. Re: Invitation to everyone to get this list going (Sean Sloane) 12. Re: Feedback of ISO 12647 (Paul Sherfield) 13. Re: Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome (Paul Sherfield) --__--__-- Message: 1 charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:32:53 -0000 From: "Matt Littler" <matt(a)novadarkroom.com> To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> Subject: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have received no postings; is there anyone out there???? Kind regards Matt Littler Technical Sales Executive Nova Darkroom and Permajet http://www.novadarkroom.com http://www.permajet.com See us at the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th November --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Uwe Laubender" <laubender(a)the-blue-1.de> To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:41:19 +0100 Organization: The Blue 1 Communication Company GmbH boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0" Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Matt! Yep! But all are *crowding* the German ECI list, I guess! Uwe Laubender The Blue 1 Communication Company GmbH www.the-blue-1.de Tel. 0931 404808-14 Mail: laubender(a)the-blue-1.de ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Littler=20 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:32 PM Subject: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side = of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & = paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed = to this list for almost a week, I have received no postings; is there = anyone out there???? Kind regards Matt Littler=20 Technical Sales Executive Nova Darkroom and Permajet http://www.novadarkroom.com http://www.permajet.com See us at the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th November _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Hello, Matt!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yep!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But all are *crowding* the German ECI list, I guess!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uwe Laubender<BR>The Blue 1 Communication Company GmbH<BR><A=20 href=3D"http://www.the-blue-1.de">www.the-blue-1.de</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tel. 0931 404808-14<BR>Mail: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:laubender@the-blue-1.de">laubender(a)the-blue-1.de</A></DIV>= <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:matt@novadarkroom.com" = title=3Dmatt(a)novadarkroom.com>Matt=20 Littler</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:eci-en@lists.transmedia.de"=20 title=3Deci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de>eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 16, = 2004 3:32=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [ECI-EN] Introduction = & Is=20 AnyOne There?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour = management=20 side of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art = inkjet ink=20 & paper manufacturer.  I have noticed that although I have = been=20 subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have received no = postings; is=20 there anyone out there????<BR><BR>Kind regards<BR><BR>Matt Littler=20 <BR>Technical Sales Executive<BR>Nova Darkroom and Permajet<BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.novadarkroom.com">http://www.novadarkroom.com</A><BR><= A=20 href=3D"http://www.permajet.com">http://www.permajet.com</A><BR>See us = at the=20 RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th=20 November<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ECI-EN = mailing=20 list<BR><A=20 = href=3D"mailto:ECI-EN@lists.transmedia.de">ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de</A>= <BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en">http://lists.= transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0-- --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:52:48 -0500 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de From: Bill Birkett <wbirkett(a)pcolor.com> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de >Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side >of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink >& paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been >subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have received no >postings; is there anyone out there???? Matt- There are a few people subscribed to this list, but most of the action is on the German speaking list. I work for a prepress firm near Detroit, USA, and am involved with color print standards. -Bill --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:55:11 +0100 From: Johannes Hoffstadt <johannes.hoffstadt(a)color-solutions.de> To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi Matt, welcome to the list, and yes, we are here, out in the dark... you'll discover that traffic is rather "bursty" on this list - just go ahead and give us something controversial to heat up on :-) Hanno Matt Littler wrote: >Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have re >ceived no postings; is there anyone out there???? > >Kind regards > >Matt Littler >Technical Sales Executive >Nova Darkroom and Permajet >http://www.novadarkroom.com >http://www.permajet.com >See us at the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th November >_______________________________________________ >ECI-EN mailing list >ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de >http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en > > > --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:01:41 +0100 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? From: Sean Sloane <lists(a)ten000.com> To: ECI list <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> charset="ISO-8859-1" Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Yes, hello, This list gets very little traffic I have to say. Welcome! Kind regards, -- Sean M. Sloane Madrid, España ten thousand +34 680 781 946 sean(a)ten000.com http://www.ten000.com/ > From: Matt Littler <matt(a)novadarkroom.com> > Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:32:53 -0000 > To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> > Subject: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? > > Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side of tech > support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & paper > manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed to this > list for almost a week, I have received no postings; is there anyone out > there???? > > Kind regards > > Matt Littler > Technical Sales Executive > Nova Darkroom and Permajet > http://www.novadarkroom.com > http://www.permajet.com > See us at the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th November > _______________________________________________ > ECI-EN mailing list > ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de > http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en > --__--__-- Message: 6 Cc: "ECI.org Admin" <admin(a)eci.org> From: "ECI.org Admin" <admin(a)eci.org> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:52:55 +0200 To: eci(a)lists.transmedia.de, eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: [ECI-EN] Automatic vacation notification Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Sehr geehrter Listenteilnehmer Wenn sie während Ihrer Urlaubszeit eine automatische Mailnotifizierung verwenden, so aktivieren Sie bitte in ihrem ECI-Zugang die Option "Unterbinde Email-Zustellung". Dazu gehen Sie zum Link http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci Danke für Ihr Verständnis Der Listmembers Please make sure to activate the option "Disable delivery of messages" before you go on vacation and activate an automatic vacation mail notification reply. To do so, follow the link http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en Thanks for your understanding best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen Peter Kleinheider ECI-Admin --__--__-- Message: 7 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de From: "ECI.org Admin" <admin(a)eci.org> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:48 +0100 Subject: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi all Since the Altona Application Package, the ISO 12647-2 is now known at a much broader front. Some seminars and workshops are held in Germany and Austria to educate and emphasize the pre-print and print people out there, as well as print buyers, to also show and give guidance how to work with it on a daily basis. I would be very interested on some feedback from other countries than Germany and Austria, how this standard is adopted. And if someone is not working with it, my question is: Why? It is not a DIN-Standard or a Ö-Norm Standard, it is an ISO-Standard which means International (no one excluded). Again: I am talking here about ISO 12647: Graphic technology- Process control for the production of half-tone colour separations, proof and production prints Part 2: the offset process, working with AM-Screens at 60 lpi. Please tell about the good sides, as well as what is going wrong, and also about your expectations and the real life in print production. best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen Peter Kleinheider ECI-Admin --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "ECI.org Admin" <admin(a)eci.org> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:18:12 +0100 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi everyone Indeed, it is very quiet here. It would be great if the posters on the German site (or some volunteer) could translate these requests into english so not only the german capable readers and writers can take usage out of all the information given there. I also understand that if someone is not fluent in english, or has just enough practice to read some english lists, might not be able doing this. What I will try in the future is to translate the requests as good as possible into english so a larger discussion could start - and maybe also I can get better in writing english ;-) best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen Peter Kleinheider ECI-Admin --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:06:56 -0500 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de From: Bill Birkett <wbirkett(a)pcolor.com> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hello, all. I'm based in the US, and have followed the work of the ECI. Being an American, it is my nature to antagonize Europeans with provocative notions. So here goes :-) The latest release of ISO-12647-2 specifies solid ink levels with colorimetry, and specifies tone reproduction curves using graphs. These changes seem good on the surface, but raise new issues. 1. The color of a solid ink depends on the paper, the ink, and the ink film thickness. When the color of the paper varies, how does that affect the intended color of the solid ink? 2. Color is a three dimensional measure, but the pressman has just one control, ink film thickness. Generally, it won't be possible to achieve the exact color specified by adjusting ink film thickness. The pressman will have to estimate the best match, based on three varying quantities. This will be very frustrating for a pressman. 3. The tone reproduction curves are shown graphically, but there is no table or formula that would enable us to enter values into a CtP system. 4. The tone reproduction curves vary with screen ruling. Is this really a good idea? 5. The tone reproduction curves are specified using TVI, which is a density based measurement. So, while the solids are specified colorimetrically, other values still rely on densitometry. I set up a proofing system using the FOGRA27 characterization data, and found some differences compared to typical practice in the US. The tone curves have lower highlight contrast. I imagine this is due to the past popularity of positive plates in Europe versus negative plates in the US. Also, the color balance is a bit cooler. Gray balance triplets are basically the same in ISO as here, so I can't explain this difference. So, could we use ISO 12647-2 in the US? We need to bring colorimetry into the pressroom, but with single valued measurements. Tone reproduction curves could eliminate a great deal of variation, if used properly. But, TVI is an outdated concept. We need a better (and simpler) solution for creating TRCs. Currently, there is no interest whatsoever in color-managed workflows in the US. The ideas behind PDF/X-3 have no following here. Printers work with CMYK + spot files. The change from film to CtP has brought with it color anarchy. Each printer has created their own color standard, which is based on whatever considerations seem logical to that firm. It is normal practice for a printer to make their own proofs of supplied files, then do color corrections before putting a job on press. Sometimes clients pay for this, otherwise the printer eats the cost. This is incredibly wasteful, but an accepted practice. In some cases, quality expectations have dropped to keep costs in check. In many cases, printing has become a commodity to be bought on price alone. So, there is an acute need for standards here, but few comprehend it. This is a fine example of the "boiled-frog theory." I applaud the Europeans on their standardization efforts. The Altona test kit is a great accomplishment. I'd like to see similar work done in the US. -Bill >Since the Altona Application Package, the ISO >12647-2 is now known at a much broader front. >Some seminars and workshops are held in Germany >and Austria to educate and emphasize the >pre-print and print people out there, as well as >print buyers, to also show and give guidance how >to work with it on a daily basis. > >I would be very interested on some feedback from >other countries than Germany and Austria, how >this standard is adopted. And if someone is not >working with it, my question is: Why? It is not >a DIN-Standard or a Ö-Norm Standard, it is an >ISO-Standard which means International (no one >excluded). > >Again: I am talking here about ISO 12647: >Graphic technology- Process control for the >production of half-tone colour separations, >proof and production prints >Part 2: the offset process, working with AM-Screens at 60 lpi. > >Please tell about the good sides, as well as >what is going wrong, and also about your >expectations and the real life in print >production. > >best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen >Peter Kleinheider --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:15:31 +0000 From: Neil Barstow <info(a)neilbarstow.co.uk> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Peter that would be fantastic an English translation of the German ECI discussions would be very uesful perhaps an automated online translation service like http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr wouild get you started, I'm sure it's not going to work for tech words tho. admin(a)eci.org (ECI.org Admin)::16/11/04::7:18 pm:: GMT+0100 >Hi everyone > >Indeed, it is very quiet here. It would be great if the posters on the >German site (or some volunteer) could translate these requests into >english so not only the german capable readers and writers can take >usage out of all the information given there. >I also understand that if someone is not fluent in english, or has just >enough practice to read some english lists, might not be able doing >this. > >What I will try in the future is to translate the requests as good as >possible into english so a larger discussion could start - and maybe >also I can get better in writing english ;-) > >best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen >Peter Kleinheider >ECI-Admin Best Regards Neil Barstow Consulting in Imaging & Colour Management http://www.colourmanagement.net/ http://www.apple.com/uk/creative/neilbarstow/ --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:47:17 +0100 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going From: Sean Sloane <lists(a)ten000.com> To: ECI list <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> charset="ISO-8859-1" Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Babelfish doesn't work for most things though. -- Sean M. Sloane Madrid, España ten thousand +34 680 781 946 sean(a)ten000.com http://www.ten000.com/ > From: Neil Barstow <info(a)neilbarstow.co.uk> > Reply-To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> > Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:15:31 +0000 > To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going > > Peter > > that would be fantastic > > an English translation of the German ECI discussions would be very uesful > perhaps an automated online translation service like > http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr > > wouild get you started, I'm sure it's not going to work for tech words tho. > > admin(a)eci.org (ECI.org Admin)::16/11/04::7:18 pm:: GMT+0100 > >> Hi everyone >> >> Indeed, it is very quiet here. It would be great if the posters on the >> German site (or some volunteer) could translate these requests into >> english so not only the german capable readers and writers can take >> usage out of all the information given there. >> I also understand that if someone is not fluent in english, or has just >> enough practice to read some english lists, might not be able doing >> this. >> >> What I will try in the future is to translate the requests as good as >> possible into english so a larger discussion could start - and maybe >> also I can get better in writing english ;-) >> >> best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen >> Peter Kleinheider >> ECI-Admin > > Best Regards > > Neil Barstow > Consulting in Imaging & Colour Management > http://www.colourmanagement.net/ > http://www.apple.com/uk/creative/neilbarstow/ > _______________________________________________ > ECI-EN mailing list > ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de > http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en > --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:56:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647 From: Paul Sherfield <paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk> To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hello ISO 12647 in the UK? Well I have used successfully with a number of clients, many publishers and government. This has been as part of a colour managed workflow where the printer was not chosen prior to page creation, so a standard printing condition and ICC profile for images was needed. In each case the approved printers have been 'encouraged' to set their prepress and presses to meet the ISO coated type 1 paper conditions, and their proofing also using the Altona Suite and Media Wedge. In all cases this route has proved successful, even the printers that showed some reluctance at first now like the standardisation. They say it gives them control over the process, and a systemised method for problem solving. However, now the bad news. In general in the UK there is little or no knowledge of the standard. Indeed the PPA, the UK publishers association is developing it's own digital proofing standard, based I believe, on a Dupont Chromalin reference! Many people in the UK feel this to be an incorrect approach, and ISO 12647/2 standard printing conditions and the Altona Suite would better serve this purpose in a more open and standards based way. Regards Paul Sherfield The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd Telephone: 01442 871752 Mobile: 07899 906385 --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:13:58 +0000 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome From: Paul Sherfield <paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk> To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de> Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi all Some comments on Bill Birkett's post: > 1. The color of a solid ink depends on the paper, > the ink, and the ink film thickness. When the > color of the paper varies, how does that affect > the intended color of the solid ink? The ISO standard set Lab values for the paper types to be used with each printing condition > 2. Color is a three dimensional measure, but the > pressman has just one control, ink film > thickness. Generally, it won't be possible to > achieve the exact color specified by adjusting > ink film thickness. The pressman will have to > estimate the best match, based on three varying > quantities. This will be very frustrating for a > pressman. There is also a ISO standard for the ink gamut, if the process ink is not 'in-gamut' to the standard, how will anything match. > 3. The tone reproduction curves are shown > graphically, but there is no table or formula > that would enable us to enter values into a CtP > system. The TVI is what the printing condition and the associated ICC profile is expecting. Any corrections to the curve on plate output need to be assessed based on the presses current TVI, measured by printing a test form of 1-100% tints in all colours, from linear plates, and then adjusted in rip/workflow to meet the standard. > 4. The tone reproduction curves vary with screen > ruling. Is this really a good idea? I agree, I use process control to adjust the TVI to meet the standard, from 150 to 225 screen. This work very well. So just differing output curves on the rip/workflow > 5. The tone reproduction curves are specified > using TVI, which is a density based measurement. > So, while the solids are specified > colorimetrically, other values still rely on > densitometry. Lab values are more accurate then density readings. Once the lab values have been matched, a density reading using the 'house' densitometers can be used on press. The lab values should be checked on an regular basis. Re the TVI, this is measured after the inks are at the correct Lab values. I guess you could compile Lab readings for the 4 colours at 5% steps! Interesting thought? Regards Paul Sherfield The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd Telephone: 01442 871752 Mobile: 07899 906385 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en End of ECI-EN Digest_______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

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Re. Feedback of ISO 12647

by Robert Banbury

Hi,

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ISO-Profiles; Pro's and Con's

by Peter Kleinheider

Hi all This is what I god as a conclusion from the last discussion. The Fogra27-32 Measurement Values are good to work with. But most experts are not using the ISO-Profiles that the ECI generated 'cause of following issues: Pro: the long Black helps the stability of images in a print run Con: the long Black leads to desaturated colors Con: Having the max K set to 100% is to high. Background information: A good picture should not have a 255/255/255 Black. So when separating using a goof image, this profile should generate a max K of about 95% (assuming that the darkest Black in a RGB image is below the mentioned values). Can others confirm that? Con: A lot of images show a better result when separated using the RelCol-RI. The ECI-Profiles have some anomalies when using this RI. One area is Blue. Can other confirm that. The ECI-Profiles got generated using Heidelbergs PrintOpen. Have other users generated Profiles with other SW? Feedback? I found that when using the ECI-Profiles, the mid-tones become a little bit lighter. My Q is now: Who is using the ECI-Profiles as they are? Is there also feedback from those users? Peter Kleinheider

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Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2

by Graeme Bulcraig

On 16 Nov 2004, at 19:27, ECI.org Admin wrote: > Hi all > > Since the Altona Application Package, the ISO 12647-2 is now known at > a much broader front. Some seminars and workshops are held in Germany > and Austria to educate and emphasize the pre-print and print people > out there, as well as print buyers, to also show and give guidance how > to work with it on a daily basis. > > I would be very interested on some feedback from other countries than > Germany and Austria, how this standard is adopted. And if someone is > not working with it, my question is: Why? It is not a DIN-Standard or > a Ö-Norm Standard, it is an ISO-Standard which means International (no > one excluded). > > Again: I am talking here about ISO 12647: Graphic technology— Process > control for the production of half-tone colour separations, proof and > production prints > Part 2: the offset process, working with AM-Screens at 60 lpi. > > Please tell about the good sides, as well as what is going wrong, and > also about your expectations and the real life in print production. > > best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen > Peter Kleinheider > Hi All, New to this list, so I thought I would introduce myself and give a little feedback on our experiences with ISO 12647-2. I run a small retouching company in London and we have been supplying files to magazines / agencies and photographers or many years now in RGB or CMYK. At first is was a question of TRYING to get a little info from whoever as to what icc profile they would like the files in, then it moved onto art directors at major magazines asking for files in Adobes Euroscale Coated V2. This was purely down to the fact that it was the only cmyk setting they actually 'knew'. Anyway, in the last 12 months we started using the ISO profiles and we haven't had any huge problems since. Recently we have installed GMG colorproof, and we are proofing to the ISO standards. We have not even bothered with a DP10 proof setting. If we can stick to ONE set of standards (ISO 12647-2) I fell it makes life easier for us all and may possibly force printers to confirm. The problem small bureaus like ourselves face, is that many publishers / repro houses / printers don't either want to help us supply in correct settings, or maybe it is more because they have no profile or standards in place. Also, the small startups have taken away valuable scanning and retouching work from the pre-press men. What is we can take the whole CMYK conversation issue away as well? When we are retouching images we often do not know where / when or how the image will be printed (often the client does not know either). They still want a CMYK proof, so we offer it to 'a standard' , being either ISO Coated or ISO Web Coated. The bigger retouching labs in London such as Metro have enough weight to get Conde Nast and other publishers to release printing specs. They now proclaim to have icc profiles for all major magazines in UK. I would be interested to hear if these profiles work well and/or fit in with the new ISO standards? Anyone from Metro wish to comment? I think the new ISO standards will help our side of the problem a huge deal, but it will take quite a while before everyone here starts using them. Getting Adobe on board would I'm sure help a great deal, their European pre-press default settings being a pain. My only problem so far has been a couple of european printers complaining that the black generation is too high. Maybe this will be an ongoing issue? All the best Graeme Bulcraig ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------- Touch Digital Ltd. http://www.touchdigital.co.uk t. +44(0)20 7684 7500 f. +44(0)20 7684 7499

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AW: [ECI-EN] About current state of ISO 12647-2

by Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)

Dear Jouni, ISO 12647-2 (1996) is *definitely outdated* (for at least some two years). The current version ISO/DIS 12647-2 (2003) is published for more than one year (10/2003). It is available as a valid standard document. All standardization guidelines, characterization data, profiles (ECI, bvdm/Fogra etc.) are based on the current version of ISO/DIS 12647-2 (2003). This applies to - standard characterization data 2004 (Fogra 27-32) see eg www.color.org - standard profiles 2004 (ECI) www.eci.org - Altona Test Suite Applikation Kit www.altonatessuite.com - Process Standard Offset (manual bvdm) If you go eg to www.beuth.de (DIN, ISO standards publisher in Germany) and search (suche) for "ISO 12647-2" all existing standard versions are shown: the old (1996) one, the current version of ISO/DIS 12647-2 (2003), adaptations (translations) of national standardization bodies (like BSI, DIN, ÖN) etc. This is to some extend confusing for a normal user or customer, as no further explanation is given. Please urge your customers, colleagues *only to refer to the current version of ISO/DIS 12647-2 (2003)*. A final standard version ISO 12647-2 (2005) (without technical changes) is expected to be released by ISO Cenral Secretariat in Q1/2005. Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards Karl Michael Meinecke Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm) German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm) Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden Postfach 18 69 | D-65008 Wiesbaden Fon +49(0)611 - 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 - 80 32 68 mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm.org ------------------------------------------------------ NEU NEU NEU - Altona Test Suite Anwendungspaket www.altonatestsuite.de NEW NEW NEW - Altona Test Suite Application Kit www.altonatestsuite.com bvdm-Publikationen recherchieren und bestellen http://www.point-online.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 19. November 2004 07:59 An: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de' Betreff: [ECI-EN] About current state of ISO 12647-2 Hello all In discussion with several customers I have also tried to spread knowledge of this standard. One of the problems is that to which version should I refer to - the old (1996) or the new one. I would prefer the new one but is that yet the official version - does anyone know? According to ISO web pages it is on stage "60.00 - International Standard under publication" - does someone know the exact publication day? Best Regards Jouni Marttila _________________________________________ Jouni Marttila Project Manager M-real Corporation Technology Centre Kirkniemi FIN-08800 KIRKNIEMI Finland Tel: +358 (0)10 464 2908 Fax: +358 (0)10 464 2412 Mobile: +358 (0)50 381 9085 Email: jouni.marttila(a)m-real.com www.m-real.com _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en

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ECI-EN November 2004