Hi all, Comments on ISO 12647-2 in Spain. Pros: - There is a growing concern about colour management. Our company organizes seminars on colour management and they have been quite crowded in 2004. - The standardization effort in Spain: AENOR-54 (national standardization committee for the printing Industry) is active in translating ISO standards into Spanish. As current members of this committee, we would like it be more productive, but this is very difficult given that all members do it for free, in spare hours. - The quality of colour management consultancy is quite high: there is a number of experienced consultants that is capable of doing a good job on companies willing to use ISO 12647-2 Cons: - Most of the information is not in Spanish. You have mentioned that ECI's English list has little traffic compared to the German one. You con multiply this by 2-3 in order to get an idea of the information that reaches printing companies in Spain. - It is not a client-driven demand. I have read that certain clients (e.g. Ikea) ask printers to comply with certain standards before they can start working for them. I don't know of any company doing this in Spain. We all should be able to "educate" clients about the benefits of this standard Conclusions: ISO 12647-2, standard printing conditions and the Altona Suite are known by a growing number of companies but few are currently using them. However, the trend is positive. PS: Welcome to the list, Matt! What is the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England? Julio García-Maroto cit-agm(a)infoagm.com Managing Director CIT-AGM Spanish Graphic Art Technological Centre www.cit-agm.com -----Mensaje original----- De: eci-en-request(a)lists.transmedia.de [mailto:eci-en-request@lists.transmedia.de] Enviado el: miércoles, 17 de noviembre de 2004 12:00 Para: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Asunto: ECI-EN digest, Vol 1 #121 - 13 msgs Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eci-en-request(a)lists.transmedia.de You can reach the person managing the list at eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Matt Littler) 2. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Uwe Laubender) 3. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Bill Birkett) 4. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Johannes Hoffstadt) 5. Re: Introduction & Is AnyOne There? (Sean Sloane) 6. Automatic vacation notification (ECI.org Admin) 7. Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome (ECI.org Admin) 8. Invitation to everyone to get this list going (ECI.org Admin) 9. Re: Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome (Bill Birkett) 10. Re: Invitation to everyone to get this list going (Neil Barstow) 11. Re: Invitation to everyone to get this list going (Sean Sloane) 12. Re: Feedback of ISO 12647 (Paul Sherfield) 13. Re: Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome (Paul Sherfield) --__--__-- Message: 1 charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:32:53 -0000 From: "Matt Littler" &lt;matt(a)novadarkroom.com&gt; To: &lt;eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de&gt; Subject: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have received no postings; is there anyone out there???? Kind regards Matt Littler Technical Sales Executive Nova Darkroom and Permajet http://www.novadarkroom.com http://www.permajet.com See us at the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th November --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Uwe Laubender" &lt;laubender(a)the-blue-1.de&gt; To: &lt;eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de&gt; Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:41:19 +0100 Organization: The Blue 1 Communication Company GmbH boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0" Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Matt! Yep! But all are *crowding* the German ECI list, I guess! Uwe Laubender The Blue 1 Communication Company GmbH www.the-blue-1.de Tel. 0931 404808-14 Mail: laubender(a)the-blue-1.de ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Littler=20 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:32 PM Subject: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour management side = of tech support & development for Permajet, the fine art inkjet ink & = paper manufacturer. I have noticed that although I have been subscribed = to this list for almost a week, I have received no postings; is there = anyone out there???? Kind regards Matt Littler=20 Technical Sales Executive Nova Darkroom and Permajet http://www.novadarkroom.com http://www.permajet.com See us at the RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th November _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Hello, Matt!</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Yep!</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>But all are *crowding* the German ECI list, I guess!</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Uwe Laubender<BR>The Blue 1 Communication Company GmbH<BR><A=20 href=3D"http://www.the-blue-1.de">www.the-blue-1.de</A></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Tel. 0931 404808-14<BR>Mail: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:laubender@the-blue-1.de">laubender@the-blue-1.de</A></ DIV>= <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:matt@novadarkroom.com" = title=3Dmatt(a)novadarkroom.com&gt;Matt=20 Littler</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:eci-en@lists.transmedia.de"=20 title=3Deci-en@lists.transmedia.de>eci-en@lists.transmedia.de</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 16, = 2004 3:32=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [ECI-EN] Introduction = &amp; Is=20 AnyOne There?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Hello, my name is Matt Littler and I work the colour = management=20 side of tech support &amp; development for Permajet, the fine art = inkjet ink=20 &amp; paper manufacturer.&nbsp; I have noticed that although I have = been=20 subscribed to this list for almost a week, I have received no = postings; is=20 there anyone out there????<BR><BR>Kind regards<BR><BR>Matt Littler=20 <BR>Technical Sales Executive<BR>Nova Darkroom and Permajet<BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.novadarkroom.com">http://www.novadarkroom.com</ A><BR><= A=20 href=3D"http://www.permajet.com">http://www.permajet.com</A><BR>See us = at the=20 RPS "Digital Spectacular" - Rugby England 14th=20 November<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>ECI-EN = mailing=20 list<BR><A=20 = href=3D"mailto:ECI-EN@lists.transmedia.de">ECI- EN(a)lists.transmedia.de&lt;/A&gt;= <BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en">http:// lists.= transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></ HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4CBF2.B7CB61A0-- --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:52:48 -0500 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de From: Bill Birkett &lt;wbirkett(a)pcolor.com&gt; Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Matt- There are a few people subscribed to this list, but most of the action is on the German speaking list. I work for a prepress firm near Detroit, USA, and am involved with color print standards. -Bill --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:55:11 +0100 From: Johannes Hoffstadt &lt;johannes.hoffstadt(a)color-solutions.de&gt; To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi Matt, welcome to the list, and yes, we are here, out in the dark... you'll discover that traffic is rather "bursty" on this list - just go ahead and give us something controversial to heat up on :-) Hanno Matt Littler wrote: --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:01:41 +0100 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Introduction & Is AnyOne There? From: Sean Sloane &lt;lists(a)ten000.com&gt; To: ECI list &lt;eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de&gt; charset="ISO-8859-1" Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Yes, hello, This list gets very little traffic I have to say. Welcome! Kind regards, -- Sean M. Sloane Madrid, España ten thousand +34 680 781 946 sean(a)ten000.com http://www.ten000.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Cc: "ECI.org Admin" &lt;admin(a)eci.org&gt; From: "ECI.org Admin" &lt;admin(a)eci.org&gt; Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:52:55 +0200 To: eci(a)lists.transmedia.de, eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: [ECI-EN] Automatic vacation notification Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Sehr geehrter Listenteilnehmer Wenn sie während Ihrer Urlaubszeit eine automatische Mailnotifizierung verwenden, so aktivieren Sie bitte in ihrem ECI-Zugang die Option "Unterbinde Email-Zustellung". Dazu gehen Sie zum Link http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci Danke für Ihr Verständnis Der Listmembers Please make sure to activate the option "Disable delivery of messages" before you go on vacation and activate an automatic vacation mail notification reply. To do so, follow the link http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en Thanks for your understanding best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen Peter Kleinheider ECI-Admin --__--__-- Message: 7 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de From: "ECI.org Admin" &lt;admin(a)eci.org&gt; Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:27:48 +0100 Subject: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi all Since the Altona Application Package, the ISO 12647-2 is now known at a much broader front. Some seminars and workshops are held in Germany and Austria to educate and emphasize the pre-print and print people out there, as well as print buyers, to also show and give guidance how to work with it on a daily basis. I would be very interested on some feedback from other countries than Germany and Austria, how this standard is adopted. And if someone is not working with it, my question is: Why? It is not a DIN-Standard or a Ö-Norm Standard, it is an ISO-Standard which means International (no one excluded). Again: I am talking here about ISO 12647: Graphic technology- Process control for the production of half-tone colour separations, proof and production prints Part 2: the offset process, working with AM-Screens at 60 lpi. Please tell about the good sides, as well as what is going wrong, and also about your expectations and the real life in print production. best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen Peter Kleinheider ECI-Admin --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "ECI.org Admin" &lt;admin(a)eci.org&gt; Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:18:12 +0100 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Subject: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi everyone Indeed, it is very quiet here. It would be great if the posters on the German site (or some volunteer) could translate these requests into english so not only the german capable readers and writers can take usage out of all the information given there. I also understand that if someone is not fluent in english, or has just enough practice to read some english lists, might not be able doing this. What I will try in the future is to translate the requests as good as possible into english so a larger discussion could start - and maybe also I can get better in writing english ;-) best regards / mit freundlichen Gru:ssen Peter Kleinheider ECI-Admin --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:06:56 -0500 To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de From: Bill Birkett &lt;wbirkett(a)pcolor.com&gt; Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hello, all. I'm based in the US, and have followed the work of the ECI. Being an American, it is my nature to antagonize Europeans with provocative notions. So here goes :-) The latest release of ISO-12647-2 specifies solid ink levels with colorimetry, and specifies tone reproduction curves using graphs. These changes seem good on the surface, but raise new issues. 1. The color of a solid ink depends on the paper, the ink, and the ink film thickness. When the color of the paper varies, how does that affect the intended color of the solid ink? 2. Color is a three dimensional measure, but the pressman has just one control, ink film thickness. Generally, it won't be possible to achieve the exact color specified by adjusting ink film thickness. The pressman will have to estimate the best match, based on three varying quantities. This will be very frustrating for a pressman. 3. The tone reproduction curves are shown graphically, but there is no table or formula that would enable us to enter values into a CtP system. 4. The tone reproduction curves vary with screen ruling. Is this really a good idea? 5. The tone reproduction curves are specified using TVI, which is a density based measurement. So, while the solids are specified colorimetrically, other values still rely on densitometry. I set up a proofing system using the FOGRA27 characterization data, and found some differences compared to typical practice in the US. The tone curves have lower highlight contrast. I imagine this is due to the past popularity of positive plates in Europe versus negative plates in the US. Also, the color balance is a bit cooler. Gray balance triplets are basically the same in ISO as here, so I can't explain this difference. So, could we use ISO 12647-2 in the US? We need to bring colorimetry into the pressroom, but with single valued measurements. Tone reproduction curves could eliminate a great deal of variation, if used properly. But, TVI is an outdated concept. We need a better (and simpler) solution for creating TRCs. Currently, there is no interest whatsoever in color-managed workflows in the US. The ideas behind PDF/X-3 have no following here. Printers work with CMYK + spot files. The change from film to CtP has brought with it color anarchy. Each printer has created their own color standard, which is based on whatever considerations seem logical to that firm. It is normal practice for a printer to make their own proofs of supplied files, then do color corrections before putting a job on press. Sometimes clients pay for this, otherwise the printer eats the cost. This is incredibly wasteful, but an accepted practice. In some cases, quality expectations have dropped to keep costs in check. In many cases, printing has become a commodity to be bought on price alone. So, there is an acute need for standards here, but few comprehend it. This is a fine example of the "boiled-frog theory." I applaud the Europeans on their standardization efforts. The Altona test kit is a great accomplishment. I'd like to see similar work done in the US. -Bill --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:15:31 +0000 From: Neil Barstow &lt;info(a)neilbarstow.co.uk&gt; Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Peter that would be fantastic an English translation of the German ECI discussions would be very uesful perhaps an automated online translation service like http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr wouild get you started, I'm sure it's not going to work for tech words tho. admin(a)eci.org (ECI.org Admin)::16/11/04::7:18 pm:: GMT+0100 Best Regards Neil Barstow Consulting in Imaging & Colour Management http://www.colourmanagement.net/ http://www.apple.com/uk/creative/neilbarstow/ --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:47:17 +0100 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Invitation to everyone to get this list going From: Sean Sloane &lt;lists(a)ten000.com&gt; To: ECI list &lt;eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de&gt; charset="ISO-8859-1" Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Babelfish doesn't work for most things though. -- Sean M. Sloane Madrid, España ten thousand +34 680 781 946 sean(a)ten000.com http://www.ten000.com/ --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:56:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647 From: Paul Sherfield &lt;paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk&gt; To: &lt;eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de&gt; Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hello ISO 12647 in the UK? Well I have used successfully with a number of clients, many publishers and government. This has been as part of a colour managed workflow where the printer was not chosen prior to page creation, so a standard printing condition and ICC profile for images was needed. In each case the approved printers have been 'encouraged' to set their prepress and presses to meet the ISO coated type 1 paper conditions, and their proofing also using the Altona Suite and Media Wedge. In all cases this route has proved successful, even the printers that showed some reluctance at first now like the standardisation. They say it gives them control over the process, and a systemised method for problem solving. However, now the bad news. In general in the UK there is little or no knowledge of the standard. Indeed the PPA, the UK publishers association is developing it's own digital proofing standard, based I believe, on a Dupont Chromalin reference! Many people in the UK feel this to be an incorrect approach, and ISO 12647/2 standard printing conditions and the Altona Suite would better serve this purpose in a more open and standards based way. Regards Paul Sherfield The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd Telephone: 01442 871752 Mobile: 07899 906385 --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:13:58 +0000 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Feedback of ISO 12647-2 users welcome From: Paul Sherfield &lt;paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk&gt; To: &lt;eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de&gt; Reply-To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de Hi all Some comments on Bill Birkett's post: The ISO standard set Lab values for the paper types to be used with each printing condition There is also a ISO standard for the ink gamut, if the process ink is not 'in-gamut' to the standard, how will anything match. The TVI is what the printing condition and the associated ICC profile is expecting. Any corrections to the curve on plate output need to be assessed based on the presses current TVI, measured by printing a test form of 1-100% tints in all colours, from linear plates, and then adjusted in rip/workflow to meet the standard. I agree, I use process control to adjust the TVI to meet the standard, from 150 to 225 screen. This work very well. So just differing output curves on the rip/workflow Lab values are more accurate then density readings. Once the lab values have been matched, a density reading using the 'house' densitometers can be used on press. The lab values should be checked on an regular basis. Re the TVI, this is measured after the inks are at the correct Lab values. I guess you could compile Lab readings for the 4 colours at 5% steps! Interesting thought? Regards Paul Sherfield The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd Telephone: 01442 871752 Mobile: 07899 906385 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en End of ECI-EN Digest_______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en _______________________________________________ ECI-EN mailing list ECI-EN(a)lists.transmedia.de http://lists.transmedia.de/mailman/listinfo/eci-en