3:09 a.m.
*Hello everyone,*
I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the ECI
members can help me ?
Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet lamination?
..Velvet lamination is very specific..
*Best regards.*
Hervé
--
Herve LYAUDET
Responsable colorimétrie et flux de production
ALTAVIA PARIS
Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32 <+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>
Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53 <+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>
www.altavia-group.com
www.altaviawatch.com
[image: www.altavia-group.com] <http://www.altavia-group.com>
[image: Facebook Altavia] <https://www.facebook.com/altavia.group> [image:
Linkedin Altavia] <https://fr.linkedin.com/company/altavia> [image: Twitter
Altavia Group] <https://twitter.com/altaviagroup> [image: Twitter Altavia
Watch] <https://twitter.com/AltaviaWatch>
--
The information in this email and any attachments are the property of
ALTAVIA or its affiliates and may contain proprietary and confidential
information that is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the
intended recipient, please refrain from any disclosure, copying,
distribution, retention or use of this information. You are hereby notified that
such actions are prohibited and could be illegal. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please immediately contact the sender and delete the
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et ses filiales déclinent toute responsabilité au titre de cette
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9:39 a.m.
Hi Hervé,
I am not familiar with "velvet films" as a term. Are they very silky, matte
(fuzzy) and at the same time with a wide "glossy sheen" which captures much of
the ambient light, but directional? So that intensity changes with orientation?
This is what I assume for the following...
It is a difficult case for proofing. The characterization data are for 45/0 geometry, but
the viewing is more like diffuse illumination with an overall direction, which in this
case can make a big difference.
It may help to get the viewing closer to a 45/0 or 0/45 situation by blocking much of the
other diffuse ambient light. Then a print-to-proof match which measures close to 0 Delta E
will also appear close.
F49 is probably a bit too light in the shadows, you may see more contrast on the laminated
print. But it should get the color shift approximately right if your screen is around
150-180 lpi.
(F49 and F50 are not well suited for extremely fine or coarse or NP/FM screens, where the
color shifts will be smaller.)
But this is only the colorimetric part of the story... without the surface properties.
There is no proofing substrate which matches the surface of matte and silky lamination
well.
The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you have access to
such equipment.
Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation on your proofer,
laminate and measure).
Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get the same optical
effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color shift is additional optical dot
gain which depends on the screen.
Best regards
Hanno
--
Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
Senior Color Scientist
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Markbronner Weg 6
D-89077 Ulm
Germany
phone: +49 731 1406 4651
skype: hannohoffstadt
GMG GmbH & Co. KG
Moempelgarder Weg 10
72072 Tuebingen
Germany
Phone: +49 7071 93874-0
Fax: +49 7071 93874-22
mail to: hanno.hoffstadt@gmgcolor.com<mailto:hanno.hoffstadt@gmgcolor.com>
www.gmgcolor.com<http://www.gmgcolor.com/>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management software solutions.
Our customers span a wide range of industries and application areas including advertising
agencies, prepress houses, offset, flexo, packaging, digital, and large-format printers as
well as gravure printers.
GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration: Stuttgart
Local Court, No. HRA 381463.
General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration:
Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRB 382505.
Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing
CONFIDENTIALITY
The information in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and may be
privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the attention
and use of the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone
or e-mail the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system.
Am 26.02.2018 um 03:09 schrieb LYAUDET, Herve
<h.lyaudet@altavia-paris.com<mailto:h.lyaudet@altavia-paris.com>>:
Hello everyone,
I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the ECI members can help
me ?
Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet lamination?
..Velvet lamination is very specific..
Best regards.
Hervé
--
Herve LYAUDET
Responsable colorimétrie et flux de production
ALTAVIA PARIS
Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32<tel:+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>
Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53<tel:+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>
www.altavia-group.com<http://www.altavia-group.com/>
www.altaviawatch.com<http://www.altaviawatch.com/>
11:08 a.m.
Salut Hervé,
additionally to Hanno’s answer: A prerequisite of use of the profile
“PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc” (seems to be the right choice for velvet) is a
tone value increase 10% higher compared to Fogra39. That means, in the 40% tone you should
set an increase value of 13% + 10% = 23% for CMY and of 16% + 10% = 26% for K. I don’t
know the effects of “velvet” but I think you should not go beyond 10%+ because that
increase is a compensation of the light refraction in the film layer depending on its
typical thickness. This is only a rough rule of thumb, and for glossy laminate you can
work with the same curves.
Best regards,
Dieter
Von: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Hanno Hoffstadt
Gesendet: Montag, 26. Februar 2018 09:40
An: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Betreff: Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
Hi Hervé,
I am not familiar with "velvet films" as a term. Are they very silky, matte
(fuzzy) and at the same time with a wide "glossy sheen" which captures much of
the ambient light, but directional? So that intensity changes with orientation?
This is what I assume for the following...
It is a difficult case for proofing. The characterization data are for 45/0 geometry, but
the viewing is more like diffuse illumination with an overall direction, which in this
case can make a big difference.
It may help to get the viewing closer to a 45/0 or 0/45 situation by blocking much of the
other diffuse ambient light. Then a print-to-proof match which measures close to 0 Delta E
will also appear close.
F49 is probably a bit too light in the shadows, you may see more contrast on the laminated
print. But it should get the color shift approximately right if your screen is around
150-180 lpi.
(F49 and F50 are not well suited for extremely fine or coarse or NP/FM screens, where the
color shifts will be smaller.)
But this is only the colorimetric part of the story... without the surface properties.
There is no proofing substrate which matches the surface of matte and silky lamination
well.
The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you have access to
such equipment.
Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation on your proofer,
laminate and measure).
Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get the same optical
effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color shift is additional optical dot
gain which depends on the screen.
Best regards
Hanno
--
Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
Senior Color Scientist
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Markbronner Weg 6
D-89077 Ulm
Germany
phone: +49 731 1406 4651
skype: hannohoffstadt
GMG GmbH & Co. KG
Moempelgarder Weg 10
72072 Tuebingen
Germany
Phone: +49 7071 93874-0
Fax: +49 7071 93874-22
mail to: hanno.hoffstadt@gmgcolor.com<mailto:hanno.hoffstadt@gmgcolor.com>
www.gmgcolor.com<http://www.gmgcolor.com/>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management software solutions.
Our customers span a wide range of industries and application areas including advertising
agencies, prepress houses, offset, flexo, packaging, digital, and large-format printers as
well as gravure printers.
GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration: Stuttgart
Local Court, No. HRA 381463.
General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration:
Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRB 382505.
Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing
CONFIDENTIALITY
The information in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and may be
privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the attention
and use of the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone
or e-mail the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system.
Am 26.02.2018 um 03:09 schrieb LYAUDET, Herve
<h.lyaudet@altavia-paris.com<mailto:h.lyaudet@altavia-paris.com>>:
Hello everyone,
I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the ECI members can help
me ?
Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet lamination?
..Velvet lamination is very specific..
Best regards.
Hervé
--
Herve LYAUDET
Responsable colorimétrie et flux de production
ALTAVIA PARIS
Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32<tel:+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>
Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53<tel:+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>
www.altavia-group.com<http://www.altavia-group.com/>
www.altaviawatch.com<http://www.altaviawatch.com/>
8:23 p.m.
Hi all
I am wondering if ‘velvet’ refers to what is normally stated as a soft
touch varnish this normally should be having very low reflectance and does
make the colour lighter and a touch yellower.
For spot colours we normally give printers pre and post values to help mix
the ink where as with process we ask to see sheets unvarnished and check to
12647 as I don’t believe a standard has been created for this kind of work
yet.
Would be interesting to hear any other opinions or whether this is
something of an ISO consideration.
Kind regards
Nick
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 17:43, Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm) <dk(a)bvdm-online.de>
wrote:
Salut Hervé,
additionally to Hanno’s answer: A prerequisite of use of the profile
“PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc” (seems to be the right choice
for velvet) is a tone value increase 10% higher compared to Fogra39. That
means, in the 40% tone you should set an increase value of 13% + 10% = 23%
for CMY and of 16% + 10% = 26% for K. I don’t know the effects of “velvet”
but I think you should not go beyond 10%+ because that increase is a
compensation of the light refraction in the film layer depending on its
typical thickness. This is only a rough rule of thumb, and for glossy
laminate you can work with the same curves.
Best regards,
Dieter
*Von:* eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Hanno Hoffstadt
*Gesendet:* Montag, 26. Februar 2018 09:40
*An:* eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
*Betreff:* Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
Hi Hervé,
I am not familiar with "velvet films" as a term. Are they very silky,
matte (fuzzy) and at the same time with a wide "glossy sheen" which
captures much of the ambient light, but directional? So that intensity
changes with orientation?
This is what I assume for the following...
It is a difficult case for proofing. The characterization data are for
45/0 geometry, but the viewing is more like diffuse illumination with an
overall direction, which in this case can make a big difference.
It may help to get the viewing closer to a 45/0 or 0/45 situation by
blocking much of the other diffuse ambient light. Then a print-to-proof
match which measures close to 0 Delta E will also appear close.
F49 is probably a bit too light in the shadows, you may see more contrast
on the laminated print. But it should get the color shift approximately
right if your screen is around 150-180 lpi.
(F49 and F50 are not well suited for extremely fine or coarse or NP/FM
screens, where the color shifts will be smaller.)
But this is only the colorimetric part of the story... without the surface
properties.
There is no proofing substrate which matches the surface of matte and
silky lamination well.
The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
have access to such equipment.
Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation
on your proofer, laminate and measure).
Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get
the same optical effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color
shift is additional optical dot gain which depends on the screen.
Best regards
Hanno
--
Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
Senior Color Scientist
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Markbronner Weg 6
D-89077 Ulm
Germany
phone: +49 731 1406 4651
skype: hannohoffstadt
GMG GmbH & Co. KG
Moempelgarder Weg 10
72072 Tuebingen
Germany
Phone: +49 7071 93874-0
Fax: +49 7071 93874-22
mail to: hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com
www.gmgcolor.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management
software solutions. Our customers span a wide range of industries and
application areas including advertising agencies, prepress houses, offset,
flexo, packaging, digital, and large-format printers as well as gravure
printers.
GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration:
Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRA 381463.
General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court
of Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRB 382505.
Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing
CONFIDENTIALITY
The information in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and
may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. It is intended
solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). If you are not
the intended recipient, please telephone or e-mail the sender and delete
this message and any attachment from your system.
Am 26.02.2018 um 03:09 schrieb LYAUDET, Herve <h.lyaudet(a)altavia-paris.com
--
Nick Burton Print Quality Manager DDI 01895 432 460 • Main 01895 432 400 •
nick.burton(a)magharl.co.uk
--
<http://www.magharl.co.uk>
A Magnet Harlequin Group Company.
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:
*Hello everyone,*
I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the ECI
members can help me ?
Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet lamination?
..Velvet lamination is very specific..
*Best regards.*
Hervé
--
*Herve LYAUDET*
Responsable colorimétrie et flux de production
*ALTAVIA PARIS*
Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32 <+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>
Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53 <+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>
www.altavia-group.com
www.altaviawatch.com
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
11:20 a.m.
*Hello everyone,*
I appreciate your time and attention, your answers are very important for
me.
Velvet seems to be a less matte stratification that F49. But the result
seems to be very low reflectance and does make the colour lighter and a
touch yellower.
*'The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
have access to such equipment.*
*Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation
on your proofer, laminate and measure). *
*Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get
the same optical effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color
shift is additional optical dot gain which depends on the screen.'*
Thanks for the tip :) If I'm lucky, maybe I could do a press test and
laminate.
*Gentlemen, thank you very much.*
*Best regards.*
Hervé
2018-02-27 4:23 GMT+09:00 Nick Burton <nick.burton(a)magharl.co.uk>uk>:
Hi all
I am wondering if ‘velvet’ refers to what is normally stated as a soft
touch varnish this normally should be having very low reflectance and does
make the colour lighter and a touch yellower.
For spot colours we normally give printers pre and post values to help mix
the ink where as with process we ask to see sheets unvarnished and check to
12647 as I don’t believe a standard has been created for this kind of work
yet.
Would be interesting to hear any other opinions or whether this is
something of an ISO consideration.
Kind regards
Nick
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 17:43, Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm) <dk(a)bvdm-online.de>
wrote:
--
Herve LYAUDET
Responsable colorimétrie et flux de production
ALTAVIA PARIS
Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32 <+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>
Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53 <+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>
www.altavia-group.com
www.altaviawatch.com
[image: www.altavia-group.com] <http://www.altavia-group.com>
[image: Facebook Altavia] <https://www.facebook.com/altavia.group> [image:
Linkedin Altavia] <https://fr.linkedin.com/company/altavia> [image: Twitter
Altavia Group] <https://twitter.com/altaviagroup> [image: Twitter Altavia
Watch] <https://twitter.com/AltaviaWatch>
--
The information in this email and any attachments are the property of
ALTAVIA or its affiliates and may contain proprietary and confidential
information that is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the
intended recipient, please refrain from any disclosure, copying,
distribution, retention or use of this information. You are hereby notified that
such actions are prohibited and could be illegal. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please immediately contact the sender and delete the
e-mail. We appreciate your cooperation. Email transmissions being not
guaranteed, ALTAVIA and its affiliates decline their liability due to this
email transmission, specifically when altered, modified or falsified.Les
informations contenues dans cet e-mail ainsi que les fichiers joints sont
la propriété d’ALTAVIA et / ou ses filiales et peuvent être des
informations confidentielles et privées qui sont adressées à l’attention de
leur destinataire uniquement. Si vous n’êtes pas le destinataire du message
merci de ne pas divulguer, copier, diffuser, conserver ou utiliser ces
informations. Vous êtes par la présente notifié que ces agissements sont
interdits et peuvent être illégaux. Si vous avez reçu cet e-mail par
erreur, merci de prendre contact immédiatement avec l’expéditeur et de
détruire cet e-mail. Nous vous remercions de votre coopération. La
correspondance en ligne n’étant pas un moyen entièrement sécurisé, ALTAVIA
et ses filiales déclinent toute responsabilité au titre de cette
transmission, notamment si son contenu a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié
Salut Hervé,
additionally to Hanno’s answer: A prerequisite of use of the profile
“PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc” (seems to be the right choice
for velvet) is a tone value increase 10% higher compared to Fogra39. That
means, in the 40% tone you should set an increase value of 13% + 10% = 23%
for CMY and of 16% + 10% = 26% for K. I don’t know the effects of “velvet”
but I think you should not go beyond 10%+ because that increase is a
compensation of the light refraction in the film layer depending on its
typical thickness. This is only a rough rule of thumb, and for glossy
laminate you can work with the same curves.
Best regards,
Dieter
*Von:* eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Hanno Hoffstadt
*Gesendet:* Montag, 26. Februar 2018 09:40
*An:* eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
*Betreff:* Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
Hi Hervé,
I am not familiar with "velvet films" as a term. Are they very silky,
matte (fuzzy) and at the same time with a wide "glossy sheen" which
captures much of the ambient light, but directional? So that intensity
changes with orientation?
This is what I assume for the following...
It is a difficult case for proofing. The characterization data are for
45/0 geometry, but the viewing is more like diffuse illumination with an
overall direction, which in this case can make a big difference.
It may help to get the viewing closer to a 45/0 or 0/45 situation by
blocking much of the other diffuse ambient light. Then a print-to-proof
match which measures close to 0 Delta E will also appear close.
F49 is probably a bit too light in the shadows, you may see more contrast
on the laminated print. But it should get the color shift approximately
right if your screen is around 150-180 lpi.
(F49 and F50 are not well suited for extremely fine or coarse or NP/FM
screens, where the color shifts will be smaller.)
But this is only the colorimetric part of the story... without the
surface properties.
There is no proofing substrate which matches the surface of matte and
silky lamination well.
The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
have access to such equipment.
Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation
on your proofer, laminate and measure).
Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get
the same optical effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color
shift is additional optical dot gain which depends on the screen.
Best regards
Hanno
--
Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
Senior Color Scientist
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Markbronner Weg 6
D-89077 Ulm
Germany
phone: +49 731 1406 4651 <+49%20731%2014064651>
skype: hannohoffstadt
GMG GmbH & Co. KG
Moempelgarder Weg 10
72072 Tuebingen
Germany
Phone: +49 7071 93874-0
Fax: +49 7071 93874-22 <+49%207071%209387422>
mail to: hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com
www.gmgcolor.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management
software solutions. Our customers span a wide range of industries and
application areas including advertising agencies, prepress houses, offset,
flexo, packaging, digital, and large-format printers as well as gravure
printers.
GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration:
Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRA 381463.
General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court
of Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRB 382505.
Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing
CONFIDENTIALITY
The information in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and
may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. It is intended
solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). If you are not
the intended recipient, please telephone or e-mail the sender and delete
this message and any attachment from your system.
Am 26.02.2018 um 03:09 schrieb LYAUDET, Herve <
h.lyaudet(a)altavia-paris.com>gt;:
*Hello everyone,*
I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the ECI
members can help me ?
Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet lamination?
..Velvet lamination is very specific..
*Best regards.*
Hervé
--
*Herve LYAUDET*
Responsable colorimétrie et flux de production
*ALTAVIA PARIS*
Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32 <+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>
Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53 <+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>
www.altavia-group.com
www.altaviawatch.com
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
--
Nick Burton Print Quality Manager DDI 01895 432 460 • Main 01895 432 400 •
nick.burton(a)magharl.co.uk
<http://www.magharl.co.uk>
A Magnet Harlequin Group Company.
*Please consider the environment before printing this email*
<http://www.magharl.co.uk/> <https://twitter.com/magnetharlequin>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/magnet-harlequin>
<https://www.facebook.com/magnetharlequin/>
Magnet Harlequin Limited is a Limited Liability Company registered at
Companies House, Cardiff. Registration No 1708356.
Registered Address: Unit F, Tomo Estate, Packet Boat Lane, Cowley,
Uxbridge, Middlesex, UB8 2JP.
DISCLAIMER: This email and any attachments sent with it may contain
confidential and legally privileged information. It is intended solely for
the individual or entity to whom the email was addressed. If you are not
the intended recipient please notify the sender via email immediately,
delete the email (and attachments) from your computer system and destroy
any copies you may have in your possession. You are prohibited from using,
printing, copying or disclosing any of the information contained within the
email and its attachment(s). Magnet Harlequin does not accept any
responsibility or liability for any changes made to this email after it was
sent or for any viruses transmitted through it. Opinions, comments, and
conclusions made in this email may be that of the author and may not
reflect the view of Magnet Harlequin.
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4 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Hanno Hoffstadt -
Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm) -
LYAUDET, Herve -
Nick Burton