1:46 a.m.
Dear List,
Recently there was a lot of discussion on the ECI List (mainly German
section) on the Adobe profiles and the quality of the rendering.
Peter Constable of Adobe asked on the Adobe Pre Release Forum several
questions regarding this issue.
I would like to copy Peter's questions on this list and ask you to comment
on this and a copy to Peter directly.
This could improve Adobe's satisfaction index and help us to increase the
usage of ISO profiles.
Regards, Henk Gianotten
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:17:41 -0700
From: Peter Constable <pconstab(a)adobe.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: ECI ISO Coated vs. Adobe Europe ISO Coated FOGRA 27
To: Henk Gianotten <henk(a)gianotten.com>
Hi Henk,
Your Question #1 - "When does Adobe deliver the ECI-profiles as part of
their standard profile package in CS2?"
We currently are trying to support the FOGRA data sets that seem relevant
for our users. We looked into supplying the ECI profiles during out
development of the Adobe FOGRA27 profile but there were several issues that
we could not resolve. These were comments I posted on the Adobe
Pre-release forum as reasons for creating our own profiles:
*************
1 - Adobe gamut mapping is very smooth. During testing of non-Adobe
profiles, we noticed some poor smoothness of perceptual mapping in certain
areas of the color gamut.
2 - Perceptual gamut mapping of Adobe profiles are consistent with gamut
mapping of many commonly used press profiling applications. This leads to
better consistency in workflows. We noticed that the ECI profiles'
perceptual mapping was significantly different than the perceptual mapping
of our current set of profiles (lighter in the mid-tones).
Question: Is this a preferred perceptual mapping in the EU compared to the
Gretag/Adobe type rendering?.
3 - User's are aware of Adobe's gamut mapping strategies (they're in our
other profiles). The new (Adobe) Europe FOGRA27 profile shares these traits
reducing unexpected surprises when separations are reviewed.
4 - We are not required to license Heidelberg's IP to distribute the profile.
5 - ECI's profile creates a very long black starting at 0%. We have been
told that users like to see "cleaner" highlight color without K. Our black
starts at 30% of total ink.
*************
Henk - I would appreciate feed-back from the ECI members on these 5 points
above.
We would be interested in shipping third party profiles if we could make
headway on the 5 issues mentioned above.
Your Question #2 - "Why did Adobe deliver only 2 profiles based on the ISO
standards and not all 6 different versions?"
Which profiles & ISO standards are you referring to? Several of our
profiles refer to older FOGRA data using ISO 12647-2:1996 (Euroscale Coated
& Uncoated) and FOGRA27 which references ISO 12647-2:2004. Our Japan Color
profiles also use ISO 12647 type printing. Others, like the SWOP profile,
reference ISO-based ink.
I think your question is, "Why hasn't Adobe supported the other "major"
FOGRA characterizations?"? We are looking at doing that.
Regards,
Peter Constable
Color Workflow Expert
Core Technologies/Color
Adobe Systems, Inc.
206.675.7476
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2:40 p.m.
Henk Gianotten
1 - Adobe gamut mapping is very smooth. During testing
of non-Adobe
profiles, we noticed some poor smoothness of perceptual mapping in certain
areas of the color gamut.
2 - Perceptual gamut mapping of Adobe profiles are consistent with gamut
mapping of many commonly used press profiling applications. This leads to
better consistency in workflows. We noticed that the ECI profiles'
perceptual mapping was significantly different than the perceptual mapping
of our current set of profiles (lighter in the mid-tones).
Question: Is this a preferred perceptual mapping in the EU compared to the
Gretag/Adobe type rendering?.
3 - User's are aware of Adobe's gamut mapping strategies (they're in our
other profiles). The new (Adobe) Europe FOGRA27 profile shares these traits
reducing unexpected surprises when separations are reviewed.
4 - We are not required to license Heidelberg's IP to distribute the profile.
5 - ECI's profile creates a very long black starting at 0%. We have been
told that users like to see "cleaner" highlight color without K. Our black
starts at 30% of total ink.
Hi
A few comments on the above.
1) I have been using the ISO profiles, ISO coated, web coated etc, with a
number of clients, who have been very pleased with the results.
2) The 'longer' black is not an issue in most cases, and can provide more
stability on press.
3) I normally recommend my clients to convert to ISO profiles from Abode
(1998) RGB, ECI RGB and increasingly LStar RGB, using Relative Colorimetric
Intent with black point compensation. This gives the best result on most
images.
4)The Adobe profiles are lighter in the mid-tones? What does this mean?
Compared to the original image file? Does this result in a better
transformation? The TVI is part of the data set and the printing conditions,
so this comment needs more explanation.
Finally a question for Abode, are they going to include ECI RGB and LStarRGB
in their 'set' of profiles supplied with their software?
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
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5 p.m.
Hello all,
1 - Adobe gamut mapping is very smooth. During testing
of non-Adobe
profiles, we noticed some poor smoothness of perceptual mapping in
certain areas of the color gamut.
2 - Perceptual gamut mapping of Adobe profiles are consistent with
gamut mapping of many commonly used press profiling applications. This
leads to better consistency in workflows. We noticed that the ECI
profiles' perceptual mapping was significantly different than the
perceptual mapping of our current set of profiles (lighter in the
mid-tones).
Question: Is this a preferred perceptual mapping in the EU compared to
the Gretag/Adobe type rendering?.
3 - User's are aware of Adobe's gamut mapping strategies (they're in
our other profiles). The new (Adobe) Europe FOGRA27 profile shares
these traits reducing unexpected surprises when separations are
reviewed.
4 - We are not required to license Heidelberg's IP to distribute the
profile.
5 - ECI's profile creates a very long black starting at 0%. We have
been told that users like to see "cleaner" highlight color without K.
Our black starts at 30% of total ink.
Our observations and trials of the ECI profiles agree very much with
the views above. We also have some issues with the ECI profiles when
used with relative colorimetric rendering intent (I'm not sure if
these profiles were generated with this intent in mind).
We've been using both the new Adobe Europe FOGRA27 profile , and
generating our own profiles using the FOGRA characterisation data and
Gretag software using varying parameters for black generation depending
on the images being converted/separated . Both of these routes are
working well, especially when using the relative rendering intent as
our work is for the best part totally colour critical.
As a matter of interest, are Adobe considering building profiles with
varying amounts of GCR/UCR for use on an image by image basis? (On a
recent project we produced a 'family' of profiles for a photographic
publishing project. Just three were needed to deal with the various
types of images reproduced in the book concerned).
As far as licensing of profiles is concerned, we understand that there
may still be some issues. This has been much discussed among the
various standards committees we are involved with. Initial contact
with some of the profiling software/ hardware companies points to some
leeway in this area for profiles placed in the public domain , but this
has yet to be confirmed.
Bob Marchant.
Bob Marchant Photography / Colour Therapy
7:15 a.m.
New subject: Re : Adobe and the Fogra ISO profiles
--------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:17:41 -0700
From: Peter Constable <pconstab(a)adobe.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: ECI ISO Coated vs. Adobe Europe ISO Coated FOGRA 27
To: Henk Gianotten <henk(a)gianotten.com>
Hi Henk,
Your Question #1 - "When does Adobe deliver the ECI-profiles as part of
their standard profile package in CS2?"
We currently are trying to support the FOGRA data sets that seem relevant
for our users. We looked into supplying the ECI profiles during out
development of the Adobe FOGRA27 profile but there were several issues that
we could not resolve. These were comments I posted on the Adobe
Pre-release forum as reasons for creating our own profiles:
*************
1 - Adobe gamut mapping is very smooth. During testing of non-Adobe
profiles, we noticed some poor smoothness of perceptual mapping in certain
areas of the color gamut.
2 - Perceptual gamut mapping of Adobe profiles are consistent with gamut
mapping of many commonly used press profiling applications. This leads to
better consistency in workflows. We noticed that the ECI profiles'
perceptual mapping was significantly different than the perceptual mapping
of our current set of profiles (lighter in the mid-tones).
Question: Is this a preferred perceptual mapping in the EU compared to the
Gretag/Adobe type rendering?.
3 - User's are aware of Adobe's gamut mapping strategies (they're in our
other profiles). The new (Adobe) Europe FOGRA27 profile shares these traits
reducing unexpected surprises when separations are reviewed.
4 - We are not required to license Heidelberg's IP to distribute the profile.
5 - ECI's profile creates a very long black starting at 0%. We have been
told that users like to see "cleaner" highlight color without K. Our black
starts at 30% of total ink.
Hi Everyone,
My answer to point 1,2 and 3:
I convert an Adobe RGB image black of 0.0.0. to 'EuropeISOCoatedFOGRA27.icc'
in Photoshop CS using either Perceptual,Relative, Saturation or Absolute and
all with and without Black Point Compensation the black point is always C86
M85 Y79 K100 / Total Ink=350%.
but when I convert Adobe RGB images to custom made CMYK profiles the black
point always changes? I have also noticed the changes with all ISO profile
from ECI.
I use the FOGRA27 L.A.B. Values to create a new profile with total ink of 350
by using ProfileMaker, Basiccolor Print4C,
Printopen and Monaco. I have the same result in Perceptual but in Relative
black Point Comp, the result is different in the grey balance and the total
ink density.
Does this happen because of the CMM from Adobe or something more magic!!!!
Point 5:
I m a big fan of a long black separation, so this is not a issue for me.
The long black gives the printer a very good grey balance stability.
For generic profile it would be wise to have a black start at 30%.
Regards,
Yves Roussange
6876
days inactive
6878
days old
eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Bob Marchant -
Henk Gianotten -
Paul Sherfield -
yves.roussange＠colorprofiler.com