2:40 p.m.
Mr. Sabastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
AJMc
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com]On Behalf Of marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Sent: 18 April 2008 13:02
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr. Sabastian,
If possible I would like to get the report too.
Regards.
Marc Mahy
email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Inactive hide details for "Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" '
src="cid:125093912@18042008-1679" width=16>"Anandaramakrishnan
Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
04/17/2008 02:49 PM
Please respond to
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cc
Subject
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
<mailto:anand07.s@gmail.com> anand07.s(a)gmail.com
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
From: elango ae < <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: < <mailto:508214.18894.qm@web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the
subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal
level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email ( <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk>
elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject itself. I will bring
this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
From: "Jo Brunenberg"
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Sebastian,
In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of scientific
calculation.
In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in order to prevent problems
during printing and /or finishing.
(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
Senior Technology Consultant
ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
<http://www.rotosmeets.com/> www.rotosmeets.com
<http://www.rsdb.com/> www.rsdb.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet
writes:
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: < <mailto:4805E5DA.6070104@redblue.de>
4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
I am new here. Hi all of you!
Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for
discussions: we could not alter it.
When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the
way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was
"good".
For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even
for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other
people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the
drum-scanners.
ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back
in history, generally speaking.
Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good
quality.
TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with
CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
Now:
For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC
in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default"
values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240
for newsprint.
Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the
tools and we use them.
One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on
around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
*************************************
From that we allow the calculation to deviate
delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just
Noticeable Difference.
This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two
hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A
dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise:
the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with
a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
And so on.
So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or
what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
Best regards
A Sebastian
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en I just presented this at a university where I have
supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for
them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts',
until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
Cheers
A Seb
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
<http://www.redblue.de/> http://www.redblue.de
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an
intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies.
We may monitor email to and from our network.
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk,
<mailto:sales@cadgraf.com> sales(a)cadgraf.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
From: Louis Dery < <mailto:ldery@tglc.com> ldery(a)tglc.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: < <mailto:1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590@tglc.com>
1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
<http://www.tglc.com/> www.tglc.com
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, <mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
the software.
I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
or convert for example colour standards to press.
Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
print BW? LOL!
I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
tools to the user to make their own.
Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
colour and "save ink"? ;-)
In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
before you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
From: Axel Robert < <mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>
axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: < <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: < <mailto:C42D0E3B.3444%25axel.robert@ubisoft.com>
C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello everyone,
Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device link profile.
And it work very well.
Kinds regards.
Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer cet email.
Think about the environment before printing this email.
Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? < <mailto:ldery@tglc.com> ldery(a)tglc.com> a
?crit?:
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
<http://www.tglc.com/> www.tglc.com
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, <mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
*************************************
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IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
the software.
I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
or convert for example colour standards to press.
Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
print BW? LOL!
I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
tools to the user to make their own.
Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
colour and "save ink"? ;-)
In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
before you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en 
2:47 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
It seems as though most people are interested to see the report. I am
also interested and would love to have a copy of it.
Kind regards,
Seán Sloane
El 18/04/2008, a las 14:40, Tony McDonough escribió:
Mr. Sabastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
AJMc
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com
]On Behalf Of marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Sent: 18 April 2008 13:02
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr. Sabastian,
If possible I would like to get the report too.
Regards.
Marc Mahy
email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
<graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
04/17/2008 02:49 PM
Please respond to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<ecblank.gif>
To
<ecblank.gif>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<ecblank.gif>
cc
<ecblank.gif>
<ecblank.gif>
Subject
<ecblank.gif>
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
<ecblank.gif> <ecblank.gif>
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
anand07.s(a)gmail.com
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts',
until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
> Cheers
> A Seb
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
http://www.redblue.de
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive
me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our
FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a
files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would
want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an
intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies.
We may monitor email to and from our network.
This email was sent by a company within the corporate group owned
by Pearson plc, registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL,
registered in England and Wales with company number 53723 and
VAT number GB 278 5371 21.
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http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk,sales@cadgraf.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
From: Louis Dery <ldery(a)tglc.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
>
> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> the software.
> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> or convert for example colour standards to press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think
twice
> before you purchase.
>
> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
From: Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello everyone,
Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device link
profile.
And it work very well.
Kinds regards.
Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer cet email.
Think about the environment before printing this email.
Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? <ldery(a)tglc.com> a ?crit?:
> Hi A Seb,
>
> About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
> if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
> software, just let me know.
>
> I am also interested about the essay.
>
> regards,
>
> Louis Dery
> TGLC inc.
> www.tglc.com
> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
From: "Jo Brunenberg"
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Sebastian,
In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of
scientific
calculation.
In many cases in practice TAC values have been
brought down in
order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
Senior Technology Consultant
ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
www.rotosmeets.com
www.rsdb.com
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>
>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>
>
>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>
>
>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger,
the TIC was
not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>
>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values
(and not
colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to
decide what TIC we wanted.
>The TIC's used where based on what people
from Crosfield, Hell etc
told us was "good".
>For coated offset printing values around 375%
where often used.
Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in
my
company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the
biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>
>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>
>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the
pattern as
with the drum-scanners.
>
>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality
until maybe
five years back in history, generally speaking.
>Initially the ICC-technology created more
"colour gurus" rather
then good quality.
>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray
hair" and "experience".
>
>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often
based on
test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>
>Now:
>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate
the best
possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour
gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for
coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>
>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have
the
tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>
>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we
base a neutral
black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>From that we allow the calculation to
deviate delta 1 in L, not
in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this
method JND, Just
Noticeable Difference.
>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that
is 233% (two hundred
and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black
with L=11
with 233%.
>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit
to 233 for all
colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%.
Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will
limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>One more example: for newsprint we have
reached a TIC, for neutral
black, around 180% with a better L-value then
ISOnewspaper26v4 - but
a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>And so on.
>
>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience"
or what
is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
Best regards
A Sebastian
_______________________________________________
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
*************************************
I just presented this at a university where I
have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
wrote:
>>
>> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
>> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
>> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
>> the software.
>> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
>> or convert for example colour standards to press.
>> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
>> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
>> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
>> print BW? LOL!
>> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
>> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
>> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
>> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
>> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
>> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
>> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
>> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
>> tools to the user to make their own.
>> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
>> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
>> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
>> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
>> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
>> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions:
think twice
>> before you purchase.
>>
>> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
>> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
>> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>>
>> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
>> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
>> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>>
>> Cheers
>> A Seb
>>
>> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
>> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ECI-EN mailing list
> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
*************************************
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http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en 
3:05 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
One for me as well if possible ;- )
Thanks.
lars.j(a)merkurtrykk.no
Den 18. april. 2008 kl. 14.47 skrev Sean Sloane:
It seems as though most people are interested to see
the report. I
am also interested and would love to have a copy of it.
Kind regards,
Seán Sloane
El 18/04/2008, a las 14:40, Tony McDonough escribió:
Mr. Sabastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
AJMc
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com
]On Behalf Of marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Sent: 18 April 2008 13:02
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr. Sabastian,
If possible I would like to get the report too.
Regards.
Marc Mahy
email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
<graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
04/17/2008 02:49 PM
Please respond to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<ecblank.gif>
To
<ecblank.gif>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<ecblank.gif>
cc
<ecblank.gif>
<ecblank.gif>
Subject
<ecblank.gif>
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
<ecblank.gif> <ecblank.gif>
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
anand07.s(a)gmail.com
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts',
until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
> Cheers
> A Seb
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
http://www.redblue.de
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive
me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our
FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a
files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would
want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an
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We may monitor email to and from our network.
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk,sales@cadgraf.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
From: Louis Dery <ldery(a)tglc.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
>
> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> the software.
> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> or convert for example colour standards to press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think
twice
> before you purchase.
>
> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
From: Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello everyone,
Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device link
profile.
And it work very well.
Kinds regards.
Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer cet email.
Think about the environment before printing this email.
Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? <ldery(a)tglc.com> a ?crit?:
> Hi A Seb,
>
> About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
> if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
> software, just let me know.
>
> I am also interested about the essay.
>
> regards,
>
> Louis Dery
> TGLC inc.
> www.tglc.com
> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-
request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
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*************************************
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ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
From: "Jo Brunenberg"
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Sebastian,
In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter
of scientific
calculation.
In many cases in practice TAC values have been
brought down in
order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
Senior Technology Consultant
ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
www.rotosmeets.com
www.rsdb.com
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>
>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>
>
>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>
>
>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger,
the TIC was
not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>
>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values
(and not
colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to
decide what TIC we wanted.
>The TIC's used where based on what people
from Crosfield, Hell
etc told us was "good".
>For coated offset printing values around 375%
where often used.
Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in
my
company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the
biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>
>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>
>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the
pattern as
with the drum-scanners.
>
>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality
until maybe
five years back in history, generally speaking.
>Initially the ICC-technology created more
"colour gurus" rather
then good quality.
>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray
hair" and "experience".
>
>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often
based on
test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual
checks etc.
>
>Now:
>For several years we have had the technology to actually
calculate the best
possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still
many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example:
300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240
for newsprint.
>
>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have
the
tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>
>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we
base a neutral
black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>From that we allow the calculation to
deviate delta 1 in L, not
in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this
method JND, Just
Noticeable Difference.
>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that
is 233% (two
hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black
with L=11 with 233%.
>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit
to 233 for all
colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%.
Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will
limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>One more example: for newsprint we have
reached a TIC, for
neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then
ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>And so on.
>
>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience"
or what
is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
Best regards
A Sebastian
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
*************************************
I just presented this at a university where I
have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
wrote:
>>
>> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
>> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
>> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
>> the software.
>> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink"
and/
> or convert for example colour standards to
press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can
save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How
much to you save if
you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job
to
> the press but only "save ink". I
guess the problem is that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about
colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory
settings with a
> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think
twice
before
you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en 
3:11 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
I would like to have it also, tnx in advance!
j.kerver(a)result.builders.nl
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com] Namens Lars Jacobsen
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 april 2008 15:05
Aan: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Onderwerp: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
One for me as well if possible ;- )
Thanks.
lars.j(a)merkurtrykk.no
Den 18. april. 2008 kl. 14.47 skrev Sean Sloane:
It seems as though most people are interested to see the report. I am also interested
and would love to have a copy of it.
Kind regards,
Seán Sloane
El 18/04/2008, a las 14:40, Tony McDonough escribió:
Mr. Sabastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
AJMc
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com]On Behalf Of marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
Sent: 18 April 2008 13:02
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr. Sabastian,
If possible I would like to get the report too.
Regards.
Marc Mahy
email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com
<graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan"
<anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" <anand07.s(a)gmail.com>
Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
04/17/2008 02:49 PM
Please respond to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<ecblank.gif>
To
<ecblank.gif>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<ecblank.gif>
cc
<ecblank.gif>
<ecblank.gif>
Subject
<ecblank.gif>
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
<ecblank.gif> <ecblank.gif>
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
anand07.s(a)gmail.com <mailto:anand07.s@gmail.com>
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com> > wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> >
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com
<mailto:508214.18894.qm@web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the
subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal
level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk
<mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> )
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject itself. I will
bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
From: "Jo Brunenberg"
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Sebastian,
In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of scientific
calculation.
In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in order to prevent problems
during printing and /or finishing.
(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
Senior Technology Consultant
ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
www.rotosmeets.com <http://www.rotosmeets.com/>
www.rsdb.com <http://www.rsdb.com/>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> ,Internet
writes:
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de
<mailto:4805E5DA.6070104@redblue.de> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
I am new here. Hi all of you!
Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for
discussions: we could not alter it.
When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the
way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was
"good".
For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even
for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other
people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the
drum-scanners.
ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back
in history, generally speaking.
Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good
quality.
TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with
CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
Now:
For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC
in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default"
values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240
for newsprint.
Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the
tools and we use them.
One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on
around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
*************************************
From that we allow the calculation to deviate
delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just
Noticeable Difference.
This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two
hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A
dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise:
the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with
a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
And so on.
So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or
what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
Best regards
A Sebastian
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en> I just presented this at a university where I have
supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for
them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts',
until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
Cheers
A Seb
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
http://www.redblue.de <http://www.redblue.de/>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an
intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies.
We may monitor email to and from our network.
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk <mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk> ,sales(a)cadgraf.com
<mailto:sales@cadgraf.com>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
From: Louis Dery <ldery(a)tglc.com <mailto:ldery@tglc.com> >
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com
<mailto:1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590@tglc.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com <http://www.tglc.com/>
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
wrote:
IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
the software.
I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
or convert for example colour standards to press.
Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
print BW? LOL!
I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
tools to the user to make their own.
Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
colour and "save ink"? ;-)
In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
before you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
From: Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com <mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>
>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> >
Message-ID: <C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com
<mailto:C42D0E3B.3444%25axel.robert@ubisoft.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello everyone,
Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device link profile.
And it work very well.
Kinds regards.
Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer cet email.
Think about the environment before printing this email.
Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? <ldery(a)tglc.com <mailto:ldery@tglc.com>
> a ?crit?:
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com <http://www.tglc.com/>
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
wrote:
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
*************************************
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ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
the software.
I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
or convert for example colour standards to press.
Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
print BW? LOL!
I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
tools to the user to make their own.
Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
colour and "save ink"? ;-)
In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
before you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en> 
3:35 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Mr Sebastian,
Could you also send me the essay, please?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards,
Kaat
kaat.wauters(a)roularta.be
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM,
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
>
> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> the software.
> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> or convert for example colour standards to press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think
twice
> before you purchase.
>
> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>
>
4:30 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Mr Sebastian,
Could you also send me the essay, please?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards,
Vincenzo Porciello
Responsabile Prestampa Vincenzo Porciello
Direct +39 0536 400 229
Mobile +39 348 707 5848
2:48 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Mr Sebastian,
I am interested by the essay. Could you send it to me, please?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards,
marc.antoni(a)efi.com
Marc ANTONI
Field Sales Engineer
5:29 p.m.
New subject: STOP! Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear all,
please immediately STOP requesting the essay from Seb A over the
mailing list. Either contact him directly by private email, or wait
for his post where he might just offer a download link (as he has
promised to find out whether he can do it, as the essay is not his,
but somebody else's).
Olaf Druemmer
ECI Co-Admin
3:37 p.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
I'm interested in a copy of the thesis as well.
Peter Nussbaum
Lars Jacobsen wrote:
One for me as well if possible ;- )
Thanks.
lars.j(a)merkurtrykk.no <mailto:lars.j@merkurtrykk.no>
Den 18. april. 2008 kl. 14.47 skrev Sean Sloane:
It seems as though most people are interested to
see the report. I am
also interested and would love to have a copy of it.
Kind regards,
Seán Sloane
El 18/04/2008, a las 14:40, Tony McDonough escribió:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
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Mr. Sabastian,
could you please include me for the report
Best Regards
AJMc
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
[mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com]On Behalf Of
marc.mahy(a)agfa.com <mailto:marc.mahy@agfa.com>
Sent: 18 April 2008 13:02
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
Dear Mr. Sabastian,
If possible I would like to get the report too.
Regards.
Marc Mahy
email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com <mailto:marc.mahy@agfa.com>
<graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan"
<anand07.s(a)gmail.com <mailto:anand07.s@gmail.com>>
"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan"
<anand07.s(a)gmail.com
<mailto:anand07.s@gmail.com>>
Sent by:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
04/17/2008 02:49 PM
Please respond to
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
<ecblank.gif>
To
<ecblank.gif>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
<ecblank.gif>
cc
<ecblank.gif>
<ecblank.gif>
Subject
<ecblank.gif>
Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7
<ecblank.gif> <ecblank.gif>
Dear Mr sabastian
Can you please send me the essay?
Thanks and Regards
Anand
anand07.s(a)gmail.com <mailto:anand07.s@gmail.com>
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM,
<eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>> wrote:
Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
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than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae)
2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery)
3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST)
From: elango ae <elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk
<mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk>>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com
<mailto:508214.18894.qm@web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have
supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the
essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a
personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk
<mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk>)
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting
subject itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard
facts', until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
> Cheers
> A Seb
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
http://www.redblue.de <http://www.redblue.de/>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39
press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search,
so forgive me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27
standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to
FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output
matching our FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27
PDF/X-1a files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we
would want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
This email may contain confidential material. If you were
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk
<mailto:elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk>,sales@cadgraf.com
<mailto:sales@cadgraf.com>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:13:13 -0400
From: Louis Dery <ldery(a)tglc.com <mailto:ldery@tglc.com>>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590(a)tglc.com
<mailto:1EB46CBA-2E9C-4D97-9747-01FBCBA57590@tglc.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage
reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link
Pro?
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com <http://www.tglc.com/>
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM,
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
wrote:
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:24:59 +0200
From: Axel Robert <axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com
<mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
Message-ID: <C42D0E3B.3444%axel.robert(a)ubisoft.com
<mailto:C42D0E3B.3444%25axel.robert@ubisoft.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello everyone,
Can you tell us which software you use or you try?
I'm running actually with a workflow who integrates device
link profile.
And it work very well.
Kinds regards.
Axel ROBERT | Print Quality Manager |
Tel: +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Cell: +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67
P Pensez au respect de l'environnement avant d?imprimer
cet email.
Think about the environment before printing this email.
Le 17/04/08 14:13, ??Louis Dery?? <ldery(a)tglc.com
<mailto:ldery@tglc.com>> a ?crit?:
> On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM,
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
_______________________________________________
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
From: "Jo Brunenberg"
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Sebastian,
In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a
matter of
scientific calculation.
In many cases in practice TAC values have been
brought
down in order to prevent problems during printing and /or
finishing.
(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
Senior Technology Consultant
ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
www.rotosmeets.com <http://www.rotosmeets.com/>
www.rsdb.com <http://www.rsdb.com/>
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>,Internet writes:
>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>
>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>
>
>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink
limits:
>
>
>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic
enlarger, the
TIC was not open for discussions: we could
not alter it.
>
>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle
the values
(and not colours, by the way) electronically we
where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
>The TIC's used where based on what people
from
Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
>For coated offset printing values around 375%
where
often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint
sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more,
usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered
the values for uncoated qualities.
>
>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and
experience.
>
>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and
followed the
pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>
>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high
quality until
maybe five years back in history, generally
speaking.
>Initially the ICC-technology created more
"colour gurus"
rather then good quality.
>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray
hair" and "experience".
>
>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC,
often based
on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down:
visual checks etc.
>
>Now:
>For several years we have had the technology to actually
calculate
the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner
but still many colour gurus use the "good old default"
values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319
(ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>
>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today
we have
the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>
>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO
standards we base a
neutral black on around 340-350% and
we reach L=10.
>>From that we allow the calculation to
deviate delta 1
in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called
this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that
is 233%
(two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print
neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit
to 233
for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for
example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other
words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one
top value for TIC.
>One more example: for newsprint we have
reached a TIC,
for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then
ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print
reach 209%.
>And so on.
>
>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience"
or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>
>Best regards
>A Sebastian
>_______________________________________________
>ECI-EN mailing list
>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
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End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
*************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de
<mailto:4805E5DA.6070104@redblue.de>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
I just presented this at a university where I
have
supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the
essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a
personal level (email me).
IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
The base of what I am talking about is of course a
serious ICC-
profiling software. In my case the
profilegenerator is
built-in to
the software.
I have tried a few different programs that claim to
"save ink"
and/
or convert for example colour standards to
press.
Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful,
LOL). Most of
them "save ink" but some create new
colours: of course
you can save
ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much
to you
save if you
print BW? LOL!
I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to
mention names of
software as you have noticed), that do a good job
from
for example
F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to
press:
crap. For
me that is not very serious. The user can then
not adapt
the job to
the press but only "save ink". I guess
the problem is
that the
manufacturer know how to convert but have no
knowledge
about colour
and printing. They probably made the factory
settings with a
serious profiling software from another manufacturer but
give no
tools to the user to make their own.
Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't
even make a
decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link,
how can
they then
make a device link based software that is
supposed to
convert
colour and "save ink"? ;-)
In other words: when the poorest manufactures of
ICC-profiling
softwares make "save ink",
"optimal ink" etc solutions:
think twice
before you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about
optimal
values
for all colours, and no acceptance of colour
deviations
accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>
I just presented this at a university where I
have
supervised a
master student in the subject. I can send the
essay from
this
engineer for them who wants it, on a personal
level
(email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a
interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage
reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX
Device
Link Pro?
> software, just let me know.
>
> I am also interested about the essay.
>
> regards,
>
> Louis Dery
> TGLC inc.
> www.tglc.com <http://www.tglc.com/>
wrote:
>
> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> The base of what I am talking about is of course a
serious ICC-
> profiling software. In my case the
profilegenerator is
built-in to
> the software.
> I have tried a few different programs that claim to
"save
ink" and/
> or convert for example colour standards to
press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful,
LOL). Most
of
> them "save ink" but some create new
colours: of course
you can save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How
much to you
save if you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to
mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good
job from
for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to
F39 to
press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can
then not
adapt the job to
> the press but only "save ink". I
guess the problem is
that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no
knowledge
about colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory
settings
with a
> serious profiling software from another
manufacturer
but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't
even make
a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device
link, how
can they then
> make a device link based software that is
supposed to
convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of
ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink",
"optimal ink" etc solutions:
think twice
> before you purchase.
>
> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about
optimal values
> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour
deviations
accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the
colour to the
press.
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have
supervised a
> master student in the subject. I can send the
essay
from this
> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal
level
(email me).
>
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a
interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here
soon.
>
>
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8 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Johan Kerver -
Kaat.Wauters＠roularta.be -
Lars Jacobsen -
Marc Antoni -
Olaf Drümmer -
Peter.Nussbaum -
Sean Sloane -
Tony McDonough -
Vincenzo - MHP