6:18 p.m.
****** Reminder - deutsche Version siehe unten *****************
Dear Sir, Madam,
dear colleagues,
in two weeks from now, "Gravure Special 2005" is starting.
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm) hosts together with
European Color Initiative (ECI) and European Rotogravure Association (ERA)
as partner the european event
***Gravure Special 2005***
Gravure Publication Standards: Better Processes and Products
Benefits for Customers, Printers, Service Providers, Suppliers
23 - 24 June 2005, Duesseldorf CCD
Conference languages: english, german.
For all programme details and registration information, please see
www.print-media-forum.de/gravure/
Register now. See you at Duesseldorf!
****** Erinnerung - english version see above *****************
Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
liebe Kollegen,
heute in zwei Wochen beginnt der Kongress "Tiefdruck Spezial 2005".
Der Bundesverband Druck und Medien (bvdm) organisiert zusammen mit ECI
(European Color Initiative) und ERA (European Rotogravure Association) als
Partner am 23./24. Juni 2005 diese europäische Fachveranstaltung.
***Tiefdruck Spezial 2005***
Standards für Illustrationstiefdruck: Bessere Prozesse und Produkte
Vorteile für Kunden, Druckereien, Dienstleister, Lieferanten
23. und 24. Juni 2005, Düsseldorf CCD
Konferenzsprachen sind Deutsch und Englisch.
Alle Programm-Informationen, auch zur Anmeldung, finden Sie
unter www.print-media-forum.de/tiefdruck
Melden Sie sich jetzt an. Auf Wiedersehen in Düsseldorf!
**********************************
Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards
Karl Michael Meinecke
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
Biebricher Allee 79 | D-65187 Wiesbaden
Fon +49(0)611 - 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 - 80 32 68
mailto:km@bvdm-online.de | URL www.bvdm.org
------------------------------------------------------
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GS5 | Gravure Special 2005-06-24 www.print-media-forum.de/tiefdruck
PM5 | www.printundmedia.de/congress05/
DPF | Digitalproof-Forum 2005 Stuttgart www.digitalproof-forum.de
MSD | MedienStandard Druck 2004 www.bvdm.org/Aktuelles/Downloads.php
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Subject: [ECI-EN] Uncoated paper and dot gain curves.
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HI all.
I have a question regarding colorsepertions for uncoated paper.
If I get a specific profile from the paper company for every paper type and
do the conversion in Photoshop using that profiles is it , in your opinion,
any need to do any dotgain compensation when I send the images to plate (We
use DTP) or is the dot gain compensation "built into" the profile?
I would like to hear from those of you who have any experience of this, and
ofcause I'd like to hear the others opinions as well.
Best.
Jón A. Sandholt
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From: "Kimmo Poikonen" <kimmo.poikonen(a)cmykit.fi>
To: <eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de>
Subject: RE: [ECI-EN] ECIRGB versus LstarRGB 2
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:53:59 +0300
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Hello Guenter,
I would like to ask you one thing:
The starting colour space of PrintOpen is something
like the envelope
of >the so called Pointer Colours. Pointer colours are a list
of natural
colors. Colors outside this large colour space
(artificial colors) are
clipped to the bounderies of the gamut of the printing color space.
Colors
>inside this space (natural colors) but outside the gamut of the
printing >color space are mapped into the gamut and colours inside the
gamut are >slightly compressed. The compression curves are know how
derived from cmyk >color scanners.
In PO 4.0 and PO 5.0 there is a gamut mapping option in profile settings
Does this gamut mapping effect colors what are outside of the Pointer
colors or inside pointer color but outside printing color space or is
the effect of gamut mapping something else ?
Other profiling softwares use different starting gamuts
and different
compressions. You can see this when transforming highly saturated
images >with
profiles based on the same characterization data set (f.e.
FOGRA27L.txt) from ECI (ISOcoated.icc, PrintOpen) or
from Gretag
(ISOcoated...icc, ProfilMaker) or from Adobe
(EuropeanOffset...FOGRA27.icc).
Guenter Bestmann
Kimmo Poikonen
Cmykit
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de
[mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Marttila Jouni
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:20 PM
To: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de'
Subject: RE: [ECI-EN] ECIRGB versus LstarRGB 2
Chris!
I have been following this conversation and I must admit that I have had
the same misperception about gamut mapping. So I went to test this
straight away and I must say that you are right. So this mean that
ICC-profile software manufacturers assume some kind of wide colour space
to start with. And this also means that if one is using small RGB space
and perceptual rendering one never fully utilise the whole CMYK colour
space.
Is there somewhere info what kind of starting colour spaces different
software (e.g. Gretag ProfileMaker, PrintOpen) have? It must be quite
large
- otherwise colours that would be outside this assumed colour space
would be clipped?
BR Jouni
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de
[mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Chris Murphy
Sent: 1. kesäkuuta 2005 12:46
To: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECIRGB versus LstarRGB 2
On Jun 1, 2005, at 3:05 AM, Karsten Krüger wrote:
When using perceptual rendering, the whole source gamut has to fit
into the destination colorspace. Rendering does not look for how much
of the source gamut your image is using. If it would
do so you would
receive different results when moving from image to image. So when
your source gamut is huge, it gets compressed a lot when rendering to
a small CMYK output gamut.
This is not an uncommon misperception. The reality is that gamut
compression is not dynamic. The CMS does not do "more" gamut compression
for a large source space because it defers to the gamut compression
that's "pre-baked" into the output device profile. Gamut mapping in the
output profile is done at the time the profile is built, when a source
space is not even selected yet.
If you take an sRGB image and convert it to ProPhoto RGB, then convert
both to CMYK you will get effectively identical conversions. You do not
get more gamut compression by virtue of having your image in a giant
color space. Color management isn't that smart.
This does not happen with colorimetric rendering (either absolute or
relative). In this case everything outside the smaller output
colorspace is just clipped to the edge of it. If your image is small
enough, you don't see any problem. If it is bigger, you end up loosing
details.
There is still some gamut compression with relcol otherwise we'd have
images with even a little bit of out of gamut colors that would get
totally clobbered by clipping. But there should theoretically/ideally
not be much gamut compression for in-gamut colors. Only out of gamut
colors would get compressed.
Take a picture of neon advertisement at night or
flowers with vivid
colors in bright sunlight with an EOS 20D. Render them to ISOcoated.
Using photographic rendering intend you get decent results. Using
colorimetric rendering intend you end up loosing a lot of details and
the emotions from your pictures are gone.
I've experienced this also. But practically speaking, the vast majority
of images in the world do not have highly saturated fine detail that's
really important - we can accept some detail loss or the detail isn't
highly saturated. So relcol works very well for most images, including
those in ProPhoto RGB.
I like to use an other setup. Why should I keep and
manage data I am
not able to reproduce.
You can't reproduce it today perhaps. That doesn't mean you won't be
able to reproduce it tomorrow. A majority of images destined for print
to a press aren't likely to get reused ever again, so it's not a big
deal to limit them from the get go. I have no problem with this. I'm
just saying that there's a good reason to use a wide gamut RGB space
that is not normally talked about, and that's about shadow detail. I'm
not looking to tell people what they are using successfully today is a
bad choice and that they should change. It depends on what you do and
what's important to you.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
---------------------------------------------------------
Co-author "Real World Color Management, 2nd Ed"
Published by PeachPit Press (ISBN 0-321-26722-2)
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Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm)