Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 82, Issue 7 - ECI-EN

1 Mar 2018

      Hi Folks,

I've done some tests earlier about gloss laminating. Based on these, the
reason for color shift is twofold:
1. The adhesive and the foil provide an effect optically as a "wet stone",
that is, as a planparalel plate. (For thermal foils, the glue is almost
exclusively causes the color shift effect, using matte foil the "culprit"
is the foil.) The colors become more saturated and darker.
2. Saturated and darker colors also cause optical Dot gain. And it is very
important, for lower TV we always get bigger TVI, because the paper color
will be changed also. This is the reason we never get the same effect on
proofs. The proof use different screening. This a very important isue.

Both problems can be eliminated by decreasing density, on the one hand
reducing TVI. Matt foil typically  lightens the black, and can compensated
for it by increasing density. The question is always whether we want to
compensate these effects or not? The answer is always we do not want to
change the color shift.

Regards,
Pal Bekesy
Hungary

2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 &lt;eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt;om>:

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 Today's Topics:

    1. Re: Question about velvet lamination (LYAUDET, Herve)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Message: 1
 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 19:20:55 +0900
 From: "LYAUDET, Herve" &lt;h.lyaudet(a)altavia-paris.com&gt;
 Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
 To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
 Message-ID:
         <CA+1uu_aEtsL1QHcuv+nroVD8sqnWLj0ekFGUKZbam-AOMS3_
 og(a)mail.gmail.com&gt;
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 *Hello everyone,*

 I appreciate your time and attention, your answers are very important for
 me.
 Velvet seems to be a less matte stratification that F49. But the result
 seems to be very low reflectance and does make the colour lighter and a
 touch yellower.

 *'The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
 have access to such equipment.*

 *Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
 laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear transformation
 on your proofer, laminate and measure). *

 *Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to get
 the same optical effect and color shift as on the print - much of the color
 shift is additional optical dot gain which depends on the screen.'*

 Thanks for the tip :) If I'm lucky, maybe I could do a press test and
 laminate.

 *Gentlemen, thank you very much.*

 *Best regards.*

 Herv?

 2018-02-27 4:23 GMT+09:00 Nick Burton &lt;nick.burton(a)magharl.co.uk&gt;uk>:

  Hi all

 I am wondering if ?velvet? refers to what is normally stated as a soft
 touch varnish this normally should be having very low reflectance and  does
  make the colour lighter and a touch yellower.

 For spot colours we normally give printers pre and post values to help  mix
  the ink where as with process we ask to see
sheets unvarnished and check  to
  12647 as I don?t believe a standard has been
created for this kind of  work
  yet.

 Would be interesting to hear any other opinions or whether this is
 something of an ISO consideration.

 Kind regards
 Nick

 On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 17:43, Kleeberg, Dieter (bvdm) &lt;dk(a)bvdm-online.de

 wrote:

> Salut Herv?,
>
>
>
> additionally to Hanno?s answer: A prerequisite of use of the profile
> ?PSO_Coated_v2_300_Matte_laminate_eci.icc? (seems to be the right  choice
 > for velvet) is a tone value increase 10%
higher compared to Fogra39.  That
 > means, in the 40% tone you should set an
increase value of 13% + 10% =  23%
 > for CMY and of 16% + 10% = 26% for K. I don?t
know the effects of  ?velvet?
 > but I think you should not go beyond 10%+
because that increase is a
> compensation of the light refraction in the film layer depending on its
> typical thickness. This is only a rough rule of thumb, and for glossy
> laminate you can work with the same curves.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dieter
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com [mailto:
> eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Hanno  Hoffstadt
 > *Gesendet:* Montag, 26. Februar 2018 09:40
> *An:* eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
> *Betreff:* Re: [ECI-EN] Question about velvet lamination
>
>
>
> Hi Herv?,
>
>
>
> I am not familiar with "velvet films" as a term. Are they very silky,
> matte (fuzzy) and at the same time with a wide "glossy sheen" which
> captures much of the ambient light, but directional? So that intensity
> changes with orientation?
>
> This is what I assume for the following...
>
>
>
> It is a difficult case for proofing. The characterization data are for
> 45/0 geometry, but the viewing is more like diffuse illumination with an
> overall direction, which in this case can make a big difference.
>
> It may help to get the viewing closer to a 45/0 or 0/45 situation by
> blocking much of the other diffuse ambient light. Then a print-to-proof
> match which measures close to 0 Delta E will also appear close.
>
>
>
> F49 is probably a bit too light in the shadows, you may see more  contrast
 > on the laminated print. But it should get the
color shift approximately
> right if your screen is around 150-180 lpi.
>
> (F49 and F50 are not well suited for extremely fine or coarse or NP/FM
> screens, where the color shifts will be smaller.)
>
> But this is only the colorimetric part of the story... without the
> surface properties.
>
>
>
> There is no proofing substrate which matches the surface of matte and
> silky lamination well.
>
> The alternative can be to laminate the proof with the same film, if you
> have access to such equipment.
>
> Important: then you need also a profile (or "gamut" in GMG-speak) of the
> laminated proof (print an ECI2002 or IT8.7/4 with a linear  transformation
 > on your proofer, laminate and measure).
>
> Do not assume that you can simply make a F39 proof and laminate it to  get
 > the same optical effect and color shift as on
the print - much of the  color
 > shift is additional optical dot gain which
depends on the screen.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Hanno
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt
> Senior Color Scientist
> ------------------------------------------------------------  ------------
 > Markbronner Weg 6
> D-89077 Ulm
> Germany
>
> phone: +49 731 1406 4651 <+49%20731%2014064651>
>
> skype: hannohoffstadt
>
>
> GMG GmbH & Co. KG
> Moempelgarder Weg 10
> 72072 Tuebingen
> Germany
> Phone: +49 7071 93874-0
> Fax: +49 7071 93874-22 <+49%207071%209387422>
> mail to: hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com
> www.gmgcolor.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------  ------------
 >
> GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management
> software solutions. Our customers span a wide range of industries and
> application areas including advertising agencies, prepress houses,  offset,
 > flexo, packaging, digital, and large-format
printers as well as gravure
> printers.
>
>
>
> GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of Registration:
> Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRA 381463.
> General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen.  Court
 > of Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No.
HRB 382505.
> Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing
>
>
>
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>
> Am 26.02.2018 um 03:09 schrieb LYAUDET, Herve <
> h.lyaudet(a)altavia-paris.com&gt;gt;:
>
>
>
> *Hello everyone,*
>
>
>
> I request an expert opinion about velvet lamination. Maybe one of the  ECI
 > members can help me ?
>
> Can i use the F49 matte laminate characterization for a velvet  lamination?

 ..Velvet lamination is very specific..

 *Best regards.*

 Herv?

 --

 *Herve LYAUDET*

 Responsable colorim?trie et flux de production

 *ALTAVIA PARIS*

 Phone: +33 1 49 48 82 32 <+33%201%2049%2048%2082%2032>

 Cell: +33 6 27 78 47 53 <+33%206%2027%2078%2047%2053>

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 www.altaviawatch.com

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