I will be out of the office starting 18/04/2008 and will not return until
21/04/2008.
I will respond to your message when I return.
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Hi A Seb,
About devicelink profile for ink saving and ink coverage reduction,
if you want to send file to test the new PerfX Device Link Pro™
software, just let me know.
I am also interested about the essay.
regards,
Louis Dery
TGLC inc.
www.tglc.com
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:00 AM, eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
wrote:
>
> IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
> The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-
> profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to
> the software.
> I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/
> or convert for example colour standards to press.
> Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of
> them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save
> ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you
> print BW? LOL!
> I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of
> software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example
> F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For
> me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to
> the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the
> manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour
> and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a
> serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no
> tools to the user to make their own.
> Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a
> decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then
> make a device link based software that is supposed to convert
> colour and "save ink"? ;-)
> In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling
> softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice
> before you purchase.
>
> Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values
> for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for
> 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
>
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a
> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this
> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject
> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
>
>
Hi
I am surprised that you are seeing any difference re Fogra 27 to Fogra 39
printing conditions on press.
The TVI curves are the same and there is only a small difference in the Lab
values for the Yellow, around 1 De.
So the press should print CMYK separations from Fogra 27 or 39, if setup
correctly.
I have the report from the BPIF test Day at Heidelberg to the UK where we
tested the above profiles and G7 for colour appearance. Contact me on
paul(a)missinghorsecons.co.uk
and I will send it to you for reference.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Save Paper - Do you really need to print this e-mail?
http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards)
Member - BPIF Technical Standards Committee
This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended solely
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contained within this email.
Dear Mr.Sabastian,
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk)
Thanks and regards
Elango
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote:
>Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
>From: "Jo Brunenberg"
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi Sebastian,
>
>In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of scientific calculation.
>In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
>(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
>
>Best regards,
>Jo Brunenberg
>Senior Technology Consultant
>ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
>www.rotosmeets.com
>www.rsdb.com
>
>eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>>
>>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>>
>>
>>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>>
>>
>>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>>
>>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
>>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
>>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>>
>>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>>
>>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>>
>>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good quality.
>>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>>
>>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>>
>>Now:
>>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>>
>>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>>
>>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>>And so on.
>>
>>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>>
>>Best regards
>>A Sebastian
>>_______________________________________________
>>ECI-EN mailing list
>>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>
>
>Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
>P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
>mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
>
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>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
>*************************************
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:41:14 +0200
From: Joerg Schober
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID: <4805E5DA.6070104(a)redblue.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 16.04.2008 13:15 Uhr, Herr Spitfeure wrote:
> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
>
>
I'm intereted in the paper. I hope I can find there 'hard facts', until
now I have seen only many words and promises.
br,
J?rg Schober
> Cheers
> A Seb
>
>
--
J?rg Schober
______________________________
r e d b l u e Marketing GmbH
Qualit?tsmanagement
Helene-Wessel-Bogen 3
D-80939 Muenchen
fon +49 89 316 92-625
fax +49 89 316 92-779
http://www.redblue.de
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:37:26 +0100
From: "Jones, Ken"
Subject: [ECI-EN] Outputting FOGRA 27 files on a FOGRA 39 press
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
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*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk,sales@cadgraf.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference
Hi
This is my first post, I found the lists hard to search, so forgive me if
this has been answered elsewhere..
We have a print policy based on ISO 12647:2004 FOGRA 27 standard.
However, one of our main print suppliers has moved to FOGRA 39 press
conditions and is understandably struggling to output matching our FOGRA 27
proofs.
What suggestions do you have of converting our FOGRA 27 PDF/X-1a files to
their FOGRA 39 press conditions. This is something that we would want them
to do.
Thanks
Ken Jones
Acting Technical Pre-Press Manager
Penguin Group (UK)
80 Strand, London, WC2R 0RL
This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an
intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies.
We may monitor email to and from our network.
This email was sent by a company within the corporate group owned
by Pearson plc, registered office at 80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL,
registered in England and Wales with company number 53723 and
VAT number GB 278 5371 21.
Hi Jo Brunenberg,
Thanks for the comment.
I agree with you regarding smearing. Science is not always enough. Common sense and practical skills should go hand in hand with science.*
Keep in mind though, as I have said:
Calculating the "optimal level" of inks is the same as to find the LOWEST possible use of printing ink and to minimize all possible printing problems that has to do with to much ink.
With this technology we minimize
- mackel
- smearing
- drying time
- reflection and metamerism issues
and other problems that to much ink can create.
(More: the list can be made long: dirt on rollers in web presses, roll breaks (just got values reg roll breaks from a job I did in the americas: they have with this technology lowered the roll breaks from 1.5% to 0,5%: $$$!) etc etc.)
Because we will find the optimal ink values with this technique I usually disregard the smearing issues during the "calibration" process.
I usually do like this.
1. Printing contrast test (with diagonal CM and KY fields and straight colour knifes in the machine). I keep an eye on the smearing during this process though, at least in cold set web and poor papers (se below), in the full tones as well as mixes and we normally choose to be on the lower side if smearing is an issue with the paper used. When the optimal density values are found:
2. ICC charts. Measure and calculate.
3. Reference print: check the quality, TIC, smearing etc.
The most sensitive papers regarding smearing I have seen so far are the so called enhanced newsprint papers. Even though they are thicker than ordinary newsprint qualities they are not nice at all, at least not for cold set web. Think these papers are made for heat set. With this papers even full tones (100% of C, M, Y and K) are problematic so to say.
As we speak a swedish project are researching on this "enhanced" papers. Some institute and three newsprint companies are involved. Study yet not published.
With the method I use, and if printing with full tone values that don't smear, we find the best possible ink values.
- - -
DYNAMIC DEVICE LINK
Someone mentioned "dynamic device link" techonology regarding the subject I started about TIC's. This is not what I am talking about, that is another chapter. A dynamic device link techn is that the software read, not only RGB-profiles and convert, but also read different CMYK-profiles; stop the process, calculate new device links and then continue the process.
What I am talking about is the technology in how to calculate the device links: to find to optimal values and not just use simpel GCR technologies.
- - -
IN GENERAL REG THIS STUFF
The base of what I am talking about is of course a serious ICC-profiling software. In my case the profilegenerator is built-in to the software.
I have tried a few different programs that claim to "save ink" and/or convert for example colour standards to press.
Some work some don't. One saved 3% CMY (very useful, LOL). Most of them "save ink" but some create new colours: of course you can save ink if you make a blue sky gray... :-)) How much to you save if you print BW? LOL!
I tried one (I keep to the subject and I avoid to mention names of software as you have noticed), that do a good job from for example F39 to F39 but if you alter the setting to F39 to press: crap. For me that is not very serious. The user can then not adapt the job to the press but only "save ink". I guess the problem is that the manufacturer know how to convert but have no knowledge about colour and printing. They probably made the factory settings with a serious profiling software from another manufacturer but give no tools to the user to make their own.
Conclusion reg this: if a software manufacturer can't even make a decent ICC-profile, conventional or device link, how can they then make a device link based software that is supposed to convert colour and "save ink"? ;-)
In other words: when the poorest manufactures of ICC-profiling softwares make "save ink", "optimal ink" etc solutions: think twice before you purchase.
Personally I do not talk about "save ink" but about optimal values for all colours, and no acceptance of colour deviations accept for 1 level in L, + being able to match the colour to the press.
I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me).
Cheers
A Seb
*/ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject itself. I will bring this subject up here soon.
On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
>Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200
>From: "Jo Brunenberg" <jo.brunenberg(a)rsdb.com>
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
> <fc.000f5799042c89793b9aca009ee5c531.2bef68c(a)rotonet.rsdb.nl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi Sebastian,
>
>In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter of scientific calculation.
>In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing.
>(Like bad drying / smearing etc.)
>
>Best regards,
>Jo Brunenberg
>Senior Technology Consultant
>ROTO SMEETS (RSDB)
>www.rotosmeets.com
>www.rsdb.com
>
>eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes:
>>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>>
>>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>>
>>
>>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>>
>>
>>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>>
>>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
>>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
>>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>>
>>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>>
>>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>>
>>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good quality.
>>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>>
>>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>>
>>Now:
>>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>>
>>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>>
>>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>>And so on.
>>
>>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>>
>>Best regards
>>A Sebastian
>>_______________________________________________
>>ECI-EN mailing list
>>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>
>
>Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands
>P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands
>mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99
>
>
I am new here. Hi all of you!
Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the drum-scanners.
ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good quality.
TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
Now:
For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
And so on.
So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
Best regards
A Sebastian
Hi to all,
Elango here.
Very interesting exercise. Can we know the tools used in this exercise.
Best regards
Elango
>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>
>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>And so on.
>
>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>
>Best regards
>A Sebastian
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com wrote:
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 25, Issue 23 (Herr Spitfeure)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:15:36 -0700
From: Herr Spitfeure
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 25, Issue 23
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Thanks for the questions and the interest!
Answer below for:
2. Re: Total Ink Coverage with GCR based on what? (Henk Gianotten)
I put numbers in front of Henks questions:
1. >Nice figures but it's good to know how the CMYK combinations were created.
2. >Maximum K of 100%?
3. "Dark Red" in newsprint 244% with still cyan in it
>instead of K?
4. >Or in other words how long and how wide are the GCR settings for these
>profiles?
5. >Henk (Partly gray and no gray component replacement!)
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Henk Gianotten, Prins Hendriklaan 58 3761 DW Soest, Netherlands
>Tel. +31 (0)35 60 12 206 Fax: +31 (0)84 73 04 497 e-mail: henk(a)gianotten.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Yes the figures are nice indeed. The printers, the CEO's and bookbinders are very happy!
The figures where created in the software we use and it looks for a Lab match that has the lowest amount of ink: for each colour (not a compromise calculation as in normal ICC-profile with a static GCR and TIC).
2. Maximum K normally end up around 96% or 97%. I can not alter this, it is based on the measurement. I have a theory reg the maximum % in the inks:
If you have measured thousands of prints and tone scales (in offset) and especially for poor paper qualities it is always the same: vaules around 97% have a higher density then 100%. My theory is that the plate carry more ink where there are small "openings" due to the capillary attraction. Can't think of any other reason. In other words: 97% yellow is more yellow than 100%.
3. The example I gave for a "dark red" you commented on was not for newsprint. It was for coated offset. In newsprint a deep saturated colour, like for example red, usually get a TIC around 205% to 209%: but as said, a neutral black in the same print can have a TIC around 180% (and still darker then the values from ISOnewspaper26v4, we usually print a L at 38 to 39 and not 42).
Probably no cyan at all in this "dark red": a cyan in red would lower the saturation of the red: cyan is a enemy to red.
I am sure you have seen that with a well known german ICC-profiling software that they have a problem to keep out colour deviations in the dark saturated shadows: I see far to often prints where a saturated red jacket is gray in the shadows because of cyan: ugly and wrong!
4. First of all, this is not a GCR technology. As said it is more advanced and not static: it calculates all colours indvidually. The result of that has a resemblance to GCR though. But this technology has taken the print optimising as far as you can: which is not possible with GCR. I think my examples describe that pretty well.
I have seen a poor copy of this software (it is very popular to make "save ink" sofwares now) where they "save ink" (optimised, as I say) to a similar level as in the software I use: they use GCR and the result was deviations in the colour: a blue sky became grey. LOL!
The black start can be alterered in this software. I usually start around 5-8%. Theoretically you could start at 1% but if the CTP has a problem to keep 1% to 1% it can create problems: a small error in the high key can create a visual problem. So it is better, according to my testing, to start aorund 5%.
5. "Partly gray and no gray component replacement!" Is this a question?
Please get back to me if you want more vaules or examples. I am not sure if it possible to add attachments on this mailing list.
Cheers
A Sebastian
On Sunday, March 30, 2008, at 12:10PM, wrote:
>Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Herr Spitfeure)
> 2. Re: Total Ink Coverage with GCR based on what? (Henk Gianotten)
> 3. Huang Xiang/CSU/UPM is out of office (Huang.Xiang(a)upm-kymmene.com)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:35:29 -0700
>From: Herr Spitfeure
>Subject: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
> <5B0763F2-0118-1000-A55B-9041CB0FFB42-Webmail-10008(a)mac.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>
>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>
>
>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>
>
>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>
>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>
>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>
>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>
>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good quality.
>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>
>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>
>Now:
>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>
>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>
>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>And so on.
>
>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>
>Best regards
>A Sebastian
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:43:50 +0100
>From: Henk Gianotten
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage with GCR based on what?
>To:
>Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20080330003025.00c1e220(a)pop.planet.nl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>At 09:35 29-3-2008 -0700, A Sebastian wrote:
>
>>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and
>>thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it
>>is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles
>>are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top
>>value for TIC.
>>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black,
>>around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red
>>can in the same print reach 209%.
>>And so on.
>
>Nice figures but it's good to know how the CMYK combinations were created.
>Maximum K of 100%? "Dark Red" in newsprint 244% with still cyan in it
>instead of K?
>Or in other words how long and how wide are the GCR settings for these
>profiles?
>Henk (Partly gray and no gray component replacement!)
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Henk Gianotten, Prins Hendriklaan 58 3761 DW Soest, Netherlands
>Tel. +31 (0)35 60 12 206 Fax: +31 (0)84 73 04 497 e-mail: henk(a)gianotten.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:48:18 +0800
>From: Huang.Xiang(a)upm-kymmene.com
>Subject: [ECI-EN] Huang Xiang/CSU/UPM is out of office
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
>
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>I will be out of the office starting 2008-03-28 and will not return until
>2008-03-31.
>
>Pls Call me for urgent matter.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ECI-EN mailing list
>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 25, Issue 23
>**************************************
>
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 2
*************************************
Thanks and Regards
A.Elangovan
Managing Director
Cadgraf Digitals Private Limited
Digiscape Design School
2 Wheatcrofts Road
Nungambakkam
Chennai-600034
India
Ph: 0091 44 28269021, 28256812, 28223814
mob: 0091 98410 23223
Fx: 0091 44 28232290
Email: elango_ae@yahoo.co.uk,sales@cadgraf.com
between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99 <hr size=1> Yahoo! for Good helps you <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/…">make a difference</a>
Thanks for the questions and the interest!
Answer below for:
2. Re: Total Ink Coverage with GCR based on what? (Henk Gianotten)
I put numbers in front of Henks questions:
1. >Nice figures but it's good to know how the CMYK combinations were created.
2. >Maximum K of 100%?
3. "Dark Red" in newsprint 244% with still cyan in it
>instead of K?
4. >Or in other words how long and how wide are the GCR settings for these
>profiles?
5. >Henk (Partly gray and no gray component replacement!)
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Henk Gianotten, Prins Hendriklaan 58 3761 DW Soest, Netherlands
>Tel. +31 (0)35 60 12 206 Fax: +31 (0)84 73 04 497 e-mail: henk(a)gianotten.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Yes the figures are nice indeed. The printers, the CEO's and bookbinders are very happy!
The figures where created in the software we use and it looks for a Lab match that has the lowest amount of ink: for each colour (not a compromise calculation as in normal ICC-profile with a static GCR and TIC).
2. Maximum K normally end up around 96% or 97%. I can not alter this, it is based on the measurement. I have a theory reg the maximum % in the inks:
If you have measured thousands of prints and tone scales (in offset) and especially for poor paper qualities it is always the same: vaules around 97% have a higher density then 100%. My theory is that the plate carry more ink where there are small "openings" due to the capillary attraction. Can't think of any other reason. In other words: 97% yellow is more yellow than 100%.
3. The example I gave for a "dark red" you commented on was not for newsprint. It was for coated offset. In newsprint a deep saturated colour, like for example red, usually get a TIC around 205% to 209%: but as said, a neutral black in the same print can have a TIC around 180% (and still darker then the values from ISOnewspaper26v4, we usually print a L at 38 to 39 and not 42).
Probably no cyan at all in this "dark red": a cyan in red would lower the saturation of the red: cyan is a enemy to red.
I am sure you have seen that with a well known german ICC-profiling software that they have a problem to keep out colour deviations in the dark saturated shadows: I see far to often prints where a saturated red jacket is gray in the shadows because of cyan: ugly and wrong!
4. First of all, this is not a GCR technology. As said it is more advanced and not static: it calculates all colours indvidually. The result of that has a resemblance to GCR though. But this technology has taken the print optimising as far as you can: which is not possible with GCR. I think my examples describe that pretty well.
I have seen a poor copy of this software (it is very popular to make "save ink" sofwares now) where they "save ink" (optimised, as I say) to a similar level as in the software I use: they use GCR and the result was deviations in the colour: a blue sky became grey. LOL!
The black start can be alterered in this software. I usually start around 5-8%. Theoretically you could start at 1% but if the CTP has a problem to keep 1% to 1% it can create problems: a small error in the high key can create a visual problem. So it is better, according to my testing, to start aorund 5%.
5. "Partly gray and no gray component replacement!" Is this a question?
Please get back to me if you want more vaules or examples. I am not sure if it possible to add attachments on this mailing list.
Cheers
A Sebastian
On Sunday, March 30, 2008, at 12:10PM, <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> wrote:
>Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Herr Spitfeure)
> 2. Re: Total Ink Coverage with GCR based on what? (Henk Gianotten)
> 3. Huang Xiang/CSU/UPM is out of office (Huang.Xiang(a)upm-kymmene.com)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:35:29 -0700
>From: Herr Spitfeure <achtung_spitfire(a)mac.com>
>Subject: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what?
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
> <5B0763F2-0118-1000-A55B-9041CB0FFB42-Webmail-10008(a)mac.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I am new here. Hi all of you!
>
>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding:
>
>
>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits:
>
>
>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it.
>
>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to decide what TIC we wanted.
>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell etc told us was "good".
>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities.
>
>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience.
>
>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the pattern as with the drum-scanners.
>
>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking.
>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather then good quality.
>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience".
>
>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc.
>
>Now:
>For several years we have had the technology to actually calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 for newsprint.
>
>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have the tools, I have the tools and we use them.
>
>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10.
>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just Noticeable Difference.
>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top value for TIC.
>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%.
>And so on.
>
>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what is your opinion and experience regarding TIC?
>
>Best regards
>A Sebastian
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:43:50 +0100
>From: Henk Gianotten <henk(a)gianotten.com>
>Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage with GCR based on what?
>To: <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
>Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20080330003025.00c1e220(a)pop.planet.nl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>At 09:35 29-3-2008 -0700, A Sebastian wrote:
>
>>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two hundred and
>>thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black with L=11 with 233%.
>>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all colours, it
>>is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. Normal ICC-profiles
>>are in other words a compromise: the TIC will limit all colours to one top
>>value for TIC.
>>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for neutral black,
>>around 180% with a better L-value then ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red
>>can in the same print reach 209%.
>>And so on.
>
>Nice figures but it's good to know how the CMYK combinations were created.
>Maximum K of 100%? "Dark Red" in newsprint 244% with still cyan in it
>instead of K?
>Or in other words how long and how wide are the GCR settings for these
>profiles?
>Henk (Partly gray and no gray component replacement!)
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Henk Gianotten, Prins Hendriklaan 58 3761 DW Soest, Netherlands
>Tel. +31 (0)35 60 12 206 Fax: +31 (0)84 73 04 497 e-mail: henk(a)gianotten.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:48:18 +0800
>From: Huang.Xiang(a)upm-kymmene.com
>Subject: [ECI-EN] Huang Xiang/CSU/UPM is out of office
>To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>Message-ID:
> <OF83F2227C.F91F6783-ON4825741B.0082C408-4825741B.0082C408(a)upm-kymmene.com>
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>I will be out of the office starting 2008-03-28 and will not return until
>2008-03-31.
>
>Pls Call me for urgent matter.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ECI-EN mailing list
>ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
>
>End of ECI-EN Digest, Vol 25, Issue 23
>**************************************
>
>
I will be out of the office starting 07/03/2008 and will not return until
15/04/2008.
I'm currently out of the office on paternity leave.
Your UK contacts in my absence will be -
Phil Deane
Email: philip.deane(a)rrd.com
Office: +44 (0)1423 796440
Steve Fisher
Email: stephen.fisher(a)rrd.com
Office: +44 (0)1423 796107
Many thanks,
Regards, John.
