Hello Hanno and Juris Hanno wrote a nice reply. I will check those targets values for lamination from ECI-site, they could be usefull somehow... About the customers, most of them understands and accepts the effect on colors which the varnish causes. However it should be mentioned beforehand. -- Jani Vauhkonen, Finland eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com kirjoitti 12.4.2012 kello 13.00: > Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Varnish desaturates (Hanno Hoffstadt) > 2. Re: Varnish desaturates (MichaelAbildgaard Pedersen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:16:43 +0200 > From: Hanno Hoffstadt <hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com > Message-ID: <1DD7CDFA-71B2-4D92-899C-E1A568087CBE(a)gmgcolor.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi Juris, > > ISO 12647-1 states that a printing condition includes the > specification of surface finishing (varnish or laminated film). > Currently we do not have any reference printing conditions which > include varnish or lamination in ISO. > > ISO 12647-1 also requires that additional CIELAB values must be > specified for paper, solid inks, and CM, CY, MY secondaries after > finishing. > (I've never seen or heard of that done in practice.) > > ISO 12647-2 only notes that surface finishing will change the final > color appearance, and later on suggests to use two proofs (before > and after finishing) for critical jobs. > This implies that target values for surface finishing must be > different. So there are no ISO-standardized target values for any > kind of surface finishing. > > I agree with Jani that one generally should not varnish the print > control strip. This means printing to ISO standard and accept the > changes due to surface finishing. > There are exceptions where a compensation is possible, mainly with > glossy aqueous dispersion varnish. > Depending on the matte-ness of your varnish it is not possible to > reach the ISO aim values for printing on coated paper with a stable > printing process. > You will likely have too much stray light from the surface which > limits gamut and depth. E.g. your L* will be too high no matter how > much solid black ink you are printing. > > However, for glossy and matte lamination there is a new set of ICC > profiles and target values available on the ECI and Fogra web sites. > This does not directly apply to varnish, but a document is included > that contains useful information. > > Of course, customers do not want to be bothered with this, they > deliver a FOGRA39 proof and leave the rest to you. > Education is necessary to make them see that compensation is not > always possible, and make them accept either the changes due to > finishing, or to take finishing into account during separation and > proofing. > > (It's easy to say this when there are no standards around for > varnish. But if the demand is high enough, we (ECI) might consider > publishing more specialized data sets and profiles.) > > Best regards, > > Hanno > > > Am 10.04.2012 um 11:19 schrieb Juris Valdmanis: > >> Hello Jani! >> >> Thanks for your reply. >> >> When coating is applied, AxisControl will try to get to ISO targets >> as close as possible by opening/closing ink keys. The doubt are >> that there is too much of ink under coating and printing so much >> ink makes process very unstable. Also dot gain becomes very high. >> >> What does ISO says about coating? Does coated sheet should hit same >> targets as uncoated? Even when coating makes inks less saturated? >> What is your experience what do customers require? >> >> regards, >> Juris >> >> >> >> From: Jani Vauhkonen - PunaMusta Oy <jani.vauhkonen(a)punamusta.com >> > >> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> Date: 2012.04.03 14:37 >> Subject: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates >> Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> >> >> Hello Juris. >> >> I would suggest not print varnish on colorbar. >> But if somebody has investicated different target values for >> printing CMYK+varnish, it could be interesting to hear. >> We have made some test.. If the desaturation could be compensated >> by increasing density, color densities should be increased by >> 8-11%. It might cause invalid tvi values, and that should be >> compensated in prepress. >> After all, the final result is not the same if you increase density >> on varnish job vs leaving the varnish away. >> Matt varnish desaturates, and that is what it is for. >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> Kind regards: >> Jani Vauhkonen >> Prepress manager >> >> PunaMusta Oy >> PrePress division >> P.O.Box 99, FIN-80141 Joensuu >> Kosti Aaltosen tie 9, FIN-80140 Joensuu >> Tel. +358 10 230 8481 >> jani.vauhkonen(a)punamusta.com >> www.punamusta.com >> ----------------------------------------------- > > -- > Dr. Hanno Hoffstadt > Color Scientist > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Kirchstrasse 5 > D-89081 Ulm > Germany > phone: +49(0)731 38900957 > > GMG GmbH & Co. KG > Moempelgarder Weg 10 > 72072 Tuebingen > Germany > Phone: +49 7071 93874-0 > Fax: +49 7071 93874-22 > mail to: hanno.hoffstadt(a)gmgcolor.com > www.gmgcolor.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GMG is a leading developer and supplier of high-end color management > software solutions with more than 11,000 systems in use among > customers around the globe. > These span a wide range of industries and application areas > including advertising agencies, prepress houses, offset, flexo, > packaging, digital, and large-format printers as well as > international gravure printers. > > GMG GmbH & Co. KG. Registered Office: Tuebingen. Court of > Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRA 381463. > General Partner: GMG Verwaltung GmbH. Registered Office: Tuebingen. > Court of Registration: Stuttgart Local Court, No. HRB 382505. > Managing Directors: Ian Scott, Joerg Weihing, Robert Weihing. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:29:40 +0100 > From: "MichaelAbildgaard Pedersen" <map(a)dgh.dk> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Varnish desaturates > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com > Message-ID: <fc.000f7f7700b9be4e3b9aca00327797fa.b9be4f(a)dgh.dk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Denne mailkonto er under afvikling og vil derfor ikke l?ngere blive > l?st > og besvaret. > Min nye mail er: map(a)dmjx.dk > >