Re: Ink saving applications I agree with Mr Roger Breton. "Desaturated colors" as a result of "ink saving" is not acceptable. The solution tried might be from a "leading provider", but maybe the provider is leading other things the colour management. I have said it here before. Some call it "ink saving". I used to do that to. With the technology I use I now call it "optimizing the use of ink (read the post about TIC that I wrote). The result of optimizing the use of ink is less ink than "normal". It is a relative issue though. It is less ink in comparison to what is to much: people intend to put more ink that what is needed historically and even today. To comment on Anand's post: "But the downside is the more ink save we give, the colors moves more towards gray". As said before: if you use simple GCR techonolgy you would get this not acceptable result. Furthermore: a software that is supposed to "save ink" and that has a function where the setting can be altered as in more or less save ink speak its own language: not very serious and probably not very scientific at all. I also said before: if a provider, leading or not, can not even make a decent ICC-profile then you better keep you eyes opened when you try out their "save ink" functions. The was a lot of criticism but it is justified: conclusions from the field. Cheers A Sebastian On Monday, April 21, 2008, at 07:27AM, &lt;eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt; wrote: >Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Ink saving applications (Roger Breton) > 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 (Karsten_P) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:42:23 -0400 >From: Roger Breton &lt;graxx(a)videotron.ca&gt; >Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Ink saving applications >To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >Message-ID: &lt;C430CE8F.251FF%graxx(a)videotron.ca&gt; >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Dear Anand, > >I don't know how all existing ink saving software work but GMG Ink >Optimization is actually based on iterative press characterization. So, it's >not possible, in my humble experience, to end up with desaturated colors as >you described. Perhaps using the other packages leads to these questionable >results? I find that susprising. > >> We recently got an Ink save software from a leading provider. We processed a >> number of pages using the ink saving software, RIPped it and obtained the >> percentage coverage area of each ink in the page and compared it with same >> pages without processing in the ink save software. The figures are impressive. >> From the RIP data we found the software saves 20-30% ink in Cyan, Magenta and >> Yellow and around 30% increase in black ink. The ink saving varies with the >> settings we feed the software. >> >> But the downside is the more ink save we give, the colors moves more towards >> gray. I used an IT8 7.3 target for testing. I had the CMYK target processed >> with the application and another without processing. I placed them one above >> the other in a page so that the patches will be in same ink zone. The page is >> printed in a coldset web offset press. I measured the L*a*b* values of all the >> patches of both targets and compared them. Those patches which are modified by >> the application showed a Delta E variation from 2 to 7. >> >> I feel anything above 3 Delta E is above tolerance. Please share your views >> >> Regards >> Anand > >Roger Breton > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:22:40 +0200 >From: Karsten_P &lt;kp(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk&gt; >Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 >To: &quot;eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com&quot; > &lt;eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt; >Message-ID: &lt;B121C028-EAF9-423B-9C4D-CEE29A4514BC(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk&gt; >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Hallo Mr. Sebastian > >It sounds very intersant. Please send a copy > >Frendly Regards > >Karsten Petersen > >IB Gruppen >Stroeget 38 >7441 Ikast &gt;kp(a)ikastbogtrykkeri.dk >www.ibco.dk > > >Den 18/04/2008 kl. 14.15 skrev Esa Hyv?rinen: > >> Mr. Sebastian >> >> >> >> Interets too. Please, send a copy. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Esa Hyv?rinen >> >> _________________________________ >> >> Pohjolan Perhokalastaja >> >> Esa Hyv?rinen >> >> Art Director >> >> Ylist?nm?entie 31 >> >> 40500 Jyv?skyl? >> >> +358503555 134 >> >> esa.hyvarinen(a)perhokalastaja.com >> >> www.perhokalastaja.com >> >> _________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> L?hett?j?: steven accou [mailto:steven.accou@onlinegrafics.be] >> L?hetetty: 18. huhtikuuta 2008 15:10 >> Vastaanottaja: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> Aihe: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 >> >> >> >> Mr Sebastian, >> >> >> >> it also interests me. Can you send me a copy. >> >> >> >> Thx >> >> >> >> Steven Accou >> >> >> >> steven.accou(a)onlinegrafics.be >> >> >> >> >> >> Op 18-apr-08, om 14:01 heeft marc.mahy(a)agfa.com het volgende >> geschreven: >> >> >> >> >> Dear Mr. Sabastian, >> >> If possible I would like to get the report too. >> >> Regards. >> >> Marc Mahy >> >> email: marc.mahy(a)agfa.com >> >> >> <graycol.gif>"Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" &lt;anand07.s(a)gmail.com&gt; >> >> >> "Anandaramakrishnan Srinivasan" &lt;anand07.s(a)gmail.com&gt; >> Sent by: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> 04/17/2008 02:49 PM >> >> Please respond to >> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> >> To >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> >> cc >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> >> Subject >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 7 >> >> >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> >> <ecblank.gif> >> >> >> >> Dear Mr sabastian >> Can you please send me the essay? >> >> Thanks and Regards >> Anand >> anand07.s(a)gmail.com >> >> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM, <eci-en- >> request(a)lists.callassoftware.com&gt; wrote: >> >> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to >> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (elango ae) >> 2. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Louis Dery) >> 3. Re : ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 (Axel Robert) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:43:54 +0100 (BST) >> From: elango ae &lt;elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk&gt; >> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6 >> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> Message-ID: &lt;508214.18894.qm(a)web24310.mail.ird.yahoo.com&gt; >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Dear Mr.Sabastian, >> >> I just presented this at a university where I have supervised a >> master student in the subject. I can send the essay from this >> engineer for them who wants it, on a personal level (email me). >> Cheers >> A Seb >> >> Can I get the essay by email (elango_ae(a)yahoo.co.uk) >> Thanks and regards >> Elango >> >> */ Academic traditions in the graphic biz is a interesting subject >> itself. I will bring this subject up here soon. >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 16, 2008, at 12:01PM, wrote: >> >Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to >> > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> > >> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> > >> >You can reach the person managing the list at >> > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> > >> >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> >than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..." >> > >> > >> >Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: Total Ink Coverage based on what? (Jo Brunenberg) >> > >> > >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> > >> >Message: 1 >> >Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:40:50 +0200 >> >From: "Jo Brunenberg" >> >Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Total Ink Coverage based on what? >> >To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >Message-ID: >> > >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> > >> >Hi Sebastian, >> > >> >In my view defining TIC- (or TAC) values cannot only be a matter >> of scientific calculation. >> >In many cases in practice TAC values have been brought down in >> order to prevent problems during printing and /or finishing. >> >(Like bad drying / smearing etc.) >> > >> >Best regards, >> >Jo Brunenberg >> >Senior Technology Consultant >> >ROTO SMEETS (RSDB) >> >www.rotosmeets.com >> >www.rsdb.com >> > >> &gt;eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com,Internet writes: >> >>I am new here. Hi all of you! >> >> >> >>Here is my first contribution; a question regarding: >> >> >> >> >> >>Total Ink Coverage, TIC, for offset printing and the ink limits: >> >> >> >> >> >>In the past, when I worked in a analogue photographic enlarger, >> the TIC was not open for discussions: we could not alter it. >> >> >> >>When we bought a drum-scanner and where able to handle the values >> (and not colours, by the way) electronically we where now able to >> decide what TIC we wanted. >> >>The TIC's used where based on what people from Crosfield, Hell >> etc told us was "good". >> >>For coated offset printing values around 375% where often used. >> Same for uncoated and even for newsprint sometimes (at least in my >> company) until we learned more, usually from other people in the >> biz, and then we lowered the values for uncoated qualities. >> >> >> >>Conclusion so far: TIC's where based on opinions and experience. >> >> >> >>Photoshop and other softwares where introduced and followed the >> pattern as with the drum-scanners. >> >> >> >>ICC-technology appeared. Good ideas but not very high quality >> until maybe five years back in history, generally speaking. >> >>Initially the ICC-technology created more "colour gurus" rather >> then good quality. >> >>TIC's still based on opinions, "gray hair" and "experience". >> >> >> >>Some people in the biz started to alter values for TIC, often >> based on test-strips with CMYK, from 400% and down: visual checks etc. >> >> >> >>Now: >> >>For several years we have had the technology to actually >> calculate the best possible TIC in a scientifical manner but still >> many colour gurus use the "good old default" values. For example: >> 300 to 350 for coated, 260 to 319 (ECI) for uncoated and 220 to 240 >> for newsprint. >> >> >> >>Why do we not calculate the TIC's scientifically? Today we have >> the tools, I have the tools and we use them. >> >> >> >>One example: for coated offset printed within ISO standards we >> base a neutral black on around 340-350% and we reach L=10. >> >>>From that we allow the calculation to deviate delta 1 in L, not >> in a or b. A engineer that I work with called this method JND, Just >> Noticeable Difference. >> >>This way we reach a TIC in neutral black that is 233% (two >> hundred and thirty three)! In other words: we print neutral black >> with L=11 with 233%. >> >>Note: This technology do not set the TIC limit to 233 for all >> colours, it is indvidual. A dark red can for example end up 244%. >> Normal ICC-profiles are in other words a compromise: the TIC will >> limit all colours to one top value for TIC. >> >>One more example: for newsprint we have reached a TIC, for >> neutral black, around 180% with a better L-value then >> ISOnewspaper26v4 - but a dark red can in the same print reach 209%. >> >>And so on. >> >> >> >>So, good bye to "opinions", "gray hair" and "experience" or what >> is your opinion and experience regarding TIC? >> >> >> >>Best regards >> >>A Sebastian >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>ECI-EN mailing list >> &gt;&gt;ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com >> >>http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en >> > >> > >> > >> >Office: Molenveldstraat 90 - 6001 HL - Weert - The Netherlands >> >P.O. Box 17 6000 AA - Weert - The Netherlands >> >mobile: ++31 (0) 6 22 80 75 99 >> > >> >