11:58 a.m.
Hi to all...
I would like to share our experience, and why not, our disappointment,
about
the ISO 12647, the ISOCoated and everything involves.
Only two months ago, we passed auditory and they certified us at ISO
12647-2.
This means a bigger effort than what we had expected, but we got it.
Paralelly I was lucky to take part in a course the ISO 12647 taught by Erwin
Widner, president of UGRA.
The issue is: I do not understand how it is possible that the ISOCoated
does
not fill better the rule ISO 12647-2.
I dont understand neigther, why are using measurements with white backing
specified by CGATS.5 (INFORMATIVE VALUES) and NOT in accordance with ISO
12647-1...
This means that the IsoCoated not fill the rule ISO 12647-2??????
Taking into account that the maximum tolerance is 5, teher are very close
to
out of the rule. Besides, the Blue goes nearly to from 10 although it is
true that the ISO does not require anything at this respect.
But there is more....All primaries get also close to the limit. For
example, our form was quite nearer the normative than the ISOCoated.
The biggest problem is that there is a feeling in the promotion sector of
ISOCoated as a solution to the differences among printing companies, when
the reality is that a sheet which fulfills the rule ISO 12647-2, a little or
nothing resembles the Altona Suite or proof in ISOCoated.
We have to add to all this the excesive permisibility of the normative
tolerances. I have got sheets which fulfill the normative ISO in different
weight of paper taking advantage of the limits of the rule which hardly have
a similarity among them so....imagine the resemblance between them.
Not to mention the little bugs that exist in ISO as in ISOCoated ( the Lab
of traping, grey, etc)
This worries and puzzle us as printers, as a photomecanicians, as a designer
and as a photographer.
To summarize, What advantage do I take to fulfill the rule ISO 12647-2 if
the extended and promoted profile ICC does not fulfill it properly? Is it
logical
that we have to equalize in our press the ISOCoated instead of the norm ISO?
And finally, What is a press the ISOCoated for realized in some supports of
low quality when the demanded works in colour are usually printed in high
weight papers (170.-200grs) and 170-200 lpi or even Staccato, where the
colourful answers has nothing to do with it?
Sorry my english and Thanks in advance....
*********************************
Xabier Urien
Otzarreta
XabierUrien(a)otzarreta.com
+34 943 894022
www.otzarreta.com
3:32 p.m.
Xabier-
The ISO standard, in its current form, will not produce results with
consistent appearance, except under perfect, identical conditions. It
only specifies process control parameters for various grades of
paper, with the assumption that you're controlling the color and
tonality of the individual (CMYK) process ink colors. If you wish to
obtain consistent appearance, you'll need to do more than that.
Sadly, most users of print standards share your expectation - that
setting up presswork to the standard will achieve consistent
appearance. There are efforts underway, primarily in the US, to
improve print standards so they fulfill the expectation of consistent
appearance. If you look at the GRACoL7 methodology, you'll find a
rough solution to this problem.
The GRACoL7 effort is sponsored by Idealliance, which is not an
accredited standards body. This path was necessary because of
"extreme inertia" in the normal standards process. Now that the new
methodology has been proven to work, there are efforts underway to
incorporate it properly into ISO 12647-2. But, you shouldn't expect
any changes real soon, as standards work requires consensus building
and that takes time.
Looking back, the transition from film based workflows to CtP
presented a major problem. We got the ability to control the tonality
of printing through TRCs, but there was no agreed-upon and rational
way to create them. We really needed better print standards at that
time, about 10 years ago. There is some feeling that it is now too
late for standards to help the situation, and we should just resign
ourselves to the current state of color anarchy, and employ color
management to obtain consistent results. This is a pessimistic
viewpoint, but it may be the outcome if we can't agree on the needed
improvements soon.
Meanwhile, if you look at my website, http://www.doplganger.com/
you'll find a proper technical explanation of the new methodology,
with the aim of improving the existing ISO standard. I've also
developed some useful new metrics, and some highly refined tools.
-Bill
Hi to all...
I would like to share our experience, and why not, our disappointment,
about
the ISO 12647, the ISOCoated and everything involves.
Only two months ago, we passed auditory and they certified us at ISO
12647-2.
This means a bigger effort than what we had expected, but we got it.
Paralelly I was lucky to take part in a course the ISO 12647 taught by Erwin
Widner, president of UGRA.
The issue is: I do not understand how it is possible that the ISOCoated
does
not fill better the rule ISO 12647-2.
I dont understand neigther, why are using measurements with white backing
specified by CGATS.5 (INFORMATIVE VALUES) and NOT in accordance with ISO
12647-1...
This means that the IsoCoated not fill the rule ISO 12647-2??????
Taking into account that the maximum tolerance is 5, teher
are very close
to
out of the rule. Besides, the Blue goes nearly to from 10 although it is
true that the ISO does not require anything at this respect.
But there is more....All primaries get also close to the limit. For
example, our form was quite nearer the normative than the ISOCoated.
The biggest problem is that there is a feeling in the promotion sector of
ISOCoated as a solution to the differences among printing companies, when
the reality is that a sheet which fulfills the rule ISO 12647-2, a little or
nothing resembles the Altona Suite or proof in ISOCoated.
We have to add to all this the excesive permisibility of the normative
tolerances. I have got sheets which fulfill the normative ISO in different
weight of paper taking advantage of the limits of the rule which hardly have
a similarity among them so....imagine the resemblance between them.
Not to mention the little bugs that exist in ISO as in ISOCoated ( the Lab
of traping, grey, etc)
This worries and puzzle us as printers, as a photomecanicians, as a designer
and as a photographer.
To summarize, What advantage do I take to fulfill the rule
ISO 12647-2 if
the extended and promoted profile ICC does not fulfill it properly? Is it
logical
that we have to equalize in our press the ISOCoated instead of the norm ISO?
And finally, What is a press the ISOCoated for realized in some supports of
low quality when the demanded works in colour are usually printed in high
weight papers (170.-200grs) and 170-200 lpi or even Staccato, where the
colourful answers has nothing to do with it?
Sorry my english and Thanks in advance....
*********************************
Xabier Urien
Otzarreta
XabierUrien(a)otzarreta.com
+34 943 894022
www.otzarreta.com
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William B. Birkett - <wbirkett(a)doplganger.com>
Print Quality Consultant
Doppelganger, LLC - http://www.doplganger.com/
48799 Meadow Drive, Plymouth, MI 48170 (USA)
Office: (734) 927-4232 FAX: (734) 468-0580
Cell: (734) 516-4790
11:35 a.m.
Hello Xabier, hello list
Actually the ISO 12647-2 severs more as an standard to setup and control
a press, that you are able to match a proof based on the ISOcoated by
visual adjusting greybalance.
It is actually not a standard to print according numbers, to reach a
standardized visual appereance without a proof.
The whitebacking for ISOcoated was choosen, because several prepress and
press specialist made comparisons of proofs based on measurements with
black backing and whitebacking.
The proofing results with white backing where the better ones.
For controlling an ISOcoated proof with e.g. the FOGRA mediawedge, also
whitebacking should be used.
For controlling the press or indiviual press sheets, black backing is
needed, because measuring with whitebacking would result wrong results,
if both sides of the press sheet contain printed objects.
So, you cannot directly compare the Lab-values of ISOcoated
(whitebacking) with ISO-values for press (black backing)
If you buy the official reference prints for ISOcoated at
http://www.altonatestsuite.com you will find detailed informations about it.
In Germany, ISOcoated is now the most used digital proofing standard for
proofs delivered from prepress bureaus and agencies. The german printers
can work with it, even if they don´t optimized their CTP and printing
process in detail according ISO 12647-2.
There are printers, which optimized their printing process according ISO
12647-2 made the experience, that harmonic TVI curves according ISO
12647-2 are the key, to reach the best possible match to an ISOcoated
proof (and of course Inks according ISO 2846)
Based on now two years of experience in germany with printing processes
according ISO 12647-2 and proofs based on ISOcoated, the ISO Technical
committee TC 130 on one hand and FOGRA/ECI on the other hand are working
on finetuning both ISO 12647-2 and the ISOcoated profile.
At the end of April, there will be a ISO TC 130 meeting in San Diego,
where the international ISO community will discuss some finetuning of
the Lab-values for the secondary colors based on the evaluation of
several ISO conforming print runs over the world.
There is also a internal beta of a new ISOcoated-profile on the way,
which matches exactly in the primaries and secondaries the Lab-values of
the next version of ISO 12647-2 which will be discussed in San Diego.
The people, which compared proofs from the same data with ISOcoated and
the "new ISOcoated beta" saw more or less identical results.
So actually, proofing with ISOcoated and printing according ISO 12647-2
is working quite well, and the issues of slightly different Lab-values
in the ISOcoated-profile and the ISO 12647-2 will be solved in near future.
:-) Jan-Peter
PS: Also the US GRACoL team is involved in this process. One main result
of the new GRACoL guidelines http://www.gracol.org published at march 6
are revised neutral print density curves, which are fitting better both
to legay TR001 SWOP AND the ECI ISO-profiles representing printing
according ISO 12647-2 (positive process).
ISO 12647-2 is really and international standard and not only european /
german.
Xabier Urien wrote:
Hi to all...
I would like to share our experience, and why not, our disappointment,
about
the ISO 12647, the ISOCoated and everything involves.
Only two months ago, we passed auditory and they certified us at ISO
12647-2.
This means a bigger effort than what we had expected, but we got it.
Paralelly I was lucky to take part in a course the ISO 12647 taught by Erwin
Widner, president of UGRA.
The issue is: I do not understand how it is possible that the ISOCoated
does
not fill better the rule ISO 12647-2.
I dont understand neigther, why are using measurements with white backing
specified by CGATS.5 (INFORMATIVE VALUES) and NOT in accordance with ISO
12647-1...
This means that the IsoCoated not fill the rule ISO 12647-2??????
Taking into account that the maximum tolerance is 5, teher are very close
to
out of the rule. Besides, the Blue goes nearly to from 10 although it is
true that the ISO does not require anything at this respect.
But there is more....All primaries get also close to the limit. For
example, our form was quite nearer the normative than the ISOCoated.
The biggest problem is that there is a feeling in the promotion sector of
ISOCoated as a solution to the differences among printing companies, when
the reality is that a sheet which fulfills the rule ISO 12647-2, a little or
nothing resembles the Altona Suite or proof in ISOCoated.
We have to add to all this the excesive permisibility of the normative
tolerances. I have got sheets which fulfill the normative ISO in different
weight of paper taking advantage of the limits of the rule which hardly have
a similarity among them so....imagine the resemblance between them.
Not to mention the little bugs that exist in ISO as in ISOCoated ( the Lab
of traping, grey, etc)
This worries and puzzle us as printers, as a photomecanicians, as a designer
and as a photographer.
To summarize, What advantage do I take to fulfill the rule ISO 12647-2 if
the extended and promoted profile ICC does not fulfill it properly? Is it
logical
that we have to equalize in our press the ISOCoated instead of the norm ISO?
And finally, What is a press the ISOCoated for realized in some supports of
low quality when the demanded works in colour are usually printed in high
weight papers (170.-200grs) and 170-200 lpi or even Staccato, where the
colourful answers has nothing to do with it?
Sorry my english and Thanks in advance....
*********************************
Xabier Urien
Otzarreta
XabierUrien(a)otzarreta.com
+34 943 894022
www.otzarreta.com
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Kastanienallee 71 ------- http://www.colormanagement.de
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6625
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2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
Bill Birkett -
Jan-Peter Homann -
Xabier Urien