2:28 p.m.
Good day
This comment caught my attention:
*Dear Matthias, You are right, the Fogra51 paper is blueish, because it has
very much OBA. But if you compare an F51 proof with an F39 proof under D50
lightening you will find the F39 colors are reddish and F51 will be much
closer to the result on the printed material. And the F39 paper simulation
is not usable for F51 papers, because the paper color is yellowish. The
press operators like F51 proofs for Type 1 papers. *
*If this is true - i.e. that if you print out a proof of a file that was
prepared for printing on Fogra 39 substrate and output according to Fogra
39 (using the ISO Coated v2 icc profile when you prepare the job and simply
convert all colours to CMYK before you save it) and then proof it according
to Fogra 39 on Fogra 39 approved proofing media.*
*- and then take the same document and prepare it for printing according to
Fogra 51, convert all colours to CMYK and proof it according to Fogra 51 on
Fogra 51 approved proofing media, you should get the SAME visual result in
all colours.*
*If the fact is that you get a "reddish" / warmer outcome visually when
comparing these two proofs in D50 light, something is wrong with the
profiles and needs to be corrected.*
*The statement "Fogra 51 will be much closer to the result on the printed
material" is hopefully only true if the destination print material has a
white point in accordance with Fogra 51 (?) *
Best regards
Ingi Karlsson
þri., 17. mar. 2020 kl. 11:01 skrifaði <
eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com>gt;:
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1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 90, Issue 3 (Pal Bekesy)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:32:41 +0100
From: Pal Bekesy <bekesyp(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 90, Issue 3
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Message-ID:
<
CAOpU6Nbe9dvpLrSKQcvNfzqOPBx5rxcqhEYF3biYTVFB5sK5EQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dear Matthias,
You are right, the Fogra51 paper is blueish, because it has very much OBA.
But if you compare an F51 proof with an F39 proof under D50 lightening you
will find the F39 colors are reddish and F51 will be much closer to the
result on the printed material. And the F39 paper simulation is not usable
for F51 papers, because the paper color is yellowish. The press operators
like F51 proofs for Type 1 papers.
I do not understand the problem. F51 proof for OBA papers, and F39 for non
OBA papers. And always will be a little difference between F39 and F51
proofs. But not big difference. It is normal. (Of course, the files were
made with the right color profile for the proofs.)
Regards,
Pal Bekesy
Hungary
<eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com> ezt ?rta (id?pont: 2020. m?rc.
16., H, 12:02):
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
Yes we are, it?s built into our Epson machines
On 13 Mar 2020, at 17:03, <graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>> wrote:
Are you using an M1 measuring device on your proofer?
/ Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> <
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com>> On Behalf Of Studio
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 1:02 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
No we?re proofing on Fogra 51 and 52 approved paper.
On 13 Mar 2020, at 16:39, <graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>> wrote:
Are you proofing Fogra 51L and 52L on "Fogra approved 39L stock"?
MfG / Roger Breton
www.graxx.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> <
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com>> On Behalf Of Studio
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 12:04 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Cc: John Bodkin <john.bodkin(a)dawkinscolour.co.uk<mailtomailto:
john.bodkin(a)dawkinscolour.co.uk>>
Subject: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
I wonder if you can help me.
We have recently upgraded our Epson proofers and EFI RIP in order to have
the facility to produce Fogra certified proofs to 51L and 52L
specifications.
Having spent quite a long while creating media profiles for both of these
plus 39L, it seems that all Fogra 51 and 52 proofs appear ?warmer? than 39L
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L (Matthias Wessman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 08:12:02 +0000
From: Matthias Wessman <mawe(a)dgli.se>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com"
<eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com>
Message-ID: <7F3E8EB2-4018-4193-AC68-4921FE100604(a)dgli.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello,
I had the same problem when implementing F51 (EPSON printer w M1
Spectroproofer and CGS ORIS RIP). It was the paper white simulation from
the profile/measurement data that added red to both objects and images.
It
wasn?t always easy to see but sometimes
completely disturbing in
highlights.
The resolution to this was to remove the paper white simulation from the
calibration completely and also switch to another F51 approved paper
brand.
If anything the F51 should look ?cooler? than F39.
BR
Matthias Wessman
Fr?n: <eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> p? uppdrag av Studio <
studio(a)dawkinscolour.co.uk Svara till:
"eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com" <
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com Datum:
fredag 13 mars 2020 18:44
Till: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com" <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
?mne: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
Thanks for your reply.
We have been extensively testing different environments/viewers, ways of
converting images/profiles etc.
No matter what we do they always seem warmer/more red compared to what
we?re used to with 39L
Have you heard of this problem from anyone/anywhere else?
Many thanks
Simon
On 13 Mar 2020, at 17:36, <graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>> wrote:
It looks like you have all the "components" correct.
M1 measurements.
Fogra51 and 52 approved proofing media.
ISO-3669:2009 illumination.
Are you comparing:
a) images converted to Fogra39 and proofed on Fogra39 approved proofing
media
to
b) images converted to Fogra51 and Fogra52 proofed on Fogra51 and Fogra52
approved media?
Out of curiosity, please try compare your proofs under direct sunlight...
/ Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> <
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com>> On Behalf Of Studio
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 1:31 PM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com<mailtolto:
eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
results.
We have been using 39L for many years now and have superb results. Part
of
our work is fine art photography reproduction, so
accurate colour is
essential.
When proofing on our Fogra approved 39L stock, the results are as we
would
expect. Not so with 51 and 52.
We have a viewing booth fitted with the latest generation VeriVide tubes
conforming to ISO 3664:2009 conditions.
All proofs we produce pass Fogra certification with very low deltaE
values, but 51 and 52 proofs always differ from 39L.
I have had proofs made by a qualified third party and their results
mirror
ours.
Could you give me any advice as to whether this problem can be resolved?
Yours Faithfully,
John Bodkin
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*************************************
12:27 a.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 90, Issue 4
Hey there,
The statement "Fogra 51 will be much closer to
the result on the printed material" is hopefully only true if the destination print
material has a white point in accordance with Fogra 51 (?)
That should be true with every proof simulation you're doing. If the paper white of
your proof has nothing to do with your printing substrate, what's the point? It's
just a nice colored print.
First question before proofing – on which paper will it be printed on! And then choose
your profiles accordingly.
But I'm wondering with all the criticism (not just with the question raised by John
now) about F51/F52 is warmer/colder/"more this and that" than F39/F47 – what are
you acutally comparing?
I get the feeling that it's mostly theoretical discussions about values or like now
comparisons between old and new proofs. I do like reading and wrapping my mind around
these discussions though ;)
But that there are differences between old and new – of course, that's the point!
As we all should know the new profiles were generated to get a closer visual match between
proof and printed endresult. So the proofs themselves must look different! Otherwise there
would be no "closer match".
What you should compare is actually and truly printed products...
Cheers,
Jens Trost
Full service agency / Prepress operator
--------------------------------------------------------------------
cre art
Die Werbeagentur. (GWA) Die Werbeproduktion.
36037 Fulda, Lindenstr. 30
fon: +49 661 25 111-0
fax: +49 661 25 111-40
jtrost(a)creart.de
www.creart.de
Neidhardt Werbe GmbH
Geschäftsführer: Jennifer Neidhardt-Weber u. Anika Wuttke
Handelsregister AG Fulda HRB 210
USt-IdNr. DE112403427
> Am 17.03.2020 um 14:28 schrieb Ingi Karlsson <ingi(a)spot-nordic.com>om>:
>
> Good day
>
> This comment caught my attention:
>
> Dear Matthias,
>
> You are right, the Fogra51 paper is blueish, because it has very much OBA.
> But if you compare an F51 proof with an F39 proof under D50 lightening you
> will find the F39 colors are reddish and F51 will be much closer to the
> result on the printed material. And the F39 paper simulation is not usable
> for F51 papers, because the paper color is yellowish. The press operators
> like F51 proofs for Type 1 papers.
>
> If this is true - i.e. that if you print out a proof of a file that was prepared for
printing on Fogra 39 substrate and output according to Fogra 39 (using the ISO Coated v2
icc profile when you prepare the job and simply convert all colours to CMYK before you
save it) and then proof it according to Fogra 39 on Fogra 39 approved proofing media.
>
> - and then take the same document and prepare it for printing according to Fogra 51,
convert all colours to CMYK and proof it according to Fogra 51 on Fogra 51 approved
proofing media, you should get the SAME visual result in all colours.
>
> If the fact is that you get a "reddish" / warmer outcome visually when
comparing these two proofs in D50 light, something is wrong with the profiles and needs to
be corrected.
>
The statement "Fogra 51 will be much closer to
the result on the printed material" is hopefully only true if the destination print
material has a white point in accordance with Fogra 51 (?)
>
> Best regards
>
> Ingi Karlsson
>
>
>
> þri., 17. mar. 2020 kl. 11:01 skrifaði <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>>:
> Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
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>
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> than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 90, Issue 3 (Pal Bekesy)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:32:41 +0100
> From: Pal Bekesy <bekesyp(a)gmail.com <mailto:bekesyp@gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] ECI-EN Digest, Vol 90, Issue 3
> To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAOpU6Nbe9dvpLrSKQcvNfzqOPBx5rxcqhEYF3biYTVFB5sK5EQ(a)mail.gmail.com
<mailto:CAOpU6Nbe9dvpLrSKQcvNfzqOPBx5rxcqhEYF3biYTVFB5sK5EQ@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Matthias,
>
> You are right, the Fogra51 paper is blueish, because it has very much OBA.
> But if you compare an F51 proof with an F39 proof under D50 lightening you
> will find the F39 colors are reddish and F51 will be much closer to the
> result on the printed material. And the F39 paper simulation is not usable
> for F51 papers, because the paper color is yellowish. The press operators
> like F51 proofs for Type 1 papers.
>
> I do not understand the problem. F51 proof for OBA papers, and F39 for non
> OBA papers. And always will be a little difference between F39 and F51
> proofs. But not big difference. It is normal. (Of course, the files were
> made with the right color profile for the proofs.)
>
>
> Regards,
> Pal Bekesy
> Hungary
>
> <eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>> ezt ?rta (id?pont: 2020. m?rc.
> 16., H, 12:02):
>
> > Send ECI-EN mailing list submissions to
> > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > eci-en-request(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-request@lists.callassoftware.com>
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > eci-en-owner(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-owner@lists.callassoftware.com>
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of ECI-EN digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L (Matthias Wessman)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 08:12:02 +0000
> > From: Matthias Wessman <mawe(a)dgli.se <mailto:mawe@dgli.se>>
> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
> > To: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>"
> > <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
> > Message-ID: <7F3E8EB2-4018-4193-AC68-4921FE100604(a)dgli.se
<mailto:7F3E8EB2-4018-4193-AC68-4921FE100604@dgli.se>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hello,
> > I had the same problem when implementing F51 (EPSON printer w M1
> > Spectroproofer and CGS ORIS RIP). It was the paper white simulation from
> > the profile/measurement data that added red to both objects and images. It
> > wasn?t always easy to see but sometimes completely disturbing in highlights.
> >
> > The resolution to this was to remove the paper white simulation from the
> > calibration completely and also switch to another F51 approved paper brand.
> >
> > If anything the F51 should look ?cooler? than F39.
> >
> > BR
> > Matthias Wessman
> >
> >
> >
> > Fr?n: <eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> p? uppdrag av Studio <
> > studio(a)dawkinscolour.co.uk <mailto:studio@dawkinscolour.co.uk>>
> > Svara till: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>" <
> > eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
> > Datum: fredag 13 mars 2020 18:44
> > Till: "eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>" <eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>>
> > ?mne: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.
> >
> > We have been extensively testing different environments/viewers, ways of
> > converting images/profiles etc.
> > No matter what we do they always seem warmer/more red compared to what
> > we?re used to with 39L
> >
> > Have you heard of this problem from anyone/anywhere else?
> >
> > Many thanks
> > Simon
> >
> >
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 17:36, <graxx(a)videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca><mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>>
> > <graxx(a)videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca><mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>> wrote:
> > It looks like you have all the "components" correct.
> > M1 measurements.
> > Fogra51 and 52 approved proofing media.
> > ISO-3669:2009 illumination.
> > Are you comparing:
> > a) images converted to Fogra39 and proofed on Fogra39 approved proofing
> > media
> > to
> > b) images converted to Fogra51 and Fogra52 proofed on Fogra51 and Fogra52
> > approved media?
> > Out of curiosity, please try compare your proofs under direct sunlight...
> > / Roger
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> <
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>> On Behalf Of Studio
> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 1:31 PM
> > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
> > >
> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
> > Yes we are, it?s built into our Epson machines
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 17:03, <graxx(a)videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca><mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>>
> > <graxx(a)videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca><mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>> wrote:
> > Are you using an M1 measuring device on your proofer?
> > / Roger
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> <
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>> On Behalf Of Studio
> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 1:02 PM
> > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
> > >
> > Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
> > No we?re proofing on Fogra 51 and 52 approved paper.
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 16:39, <graxx(a)videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca><mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>>
> > <graxx(a)videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca><mailto:graxx@videotron.ca
<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>> wrote:
> > Are you proofing Fogra 51L and 52L on "Fogra approved 39L stock"?
> > MfG / Roger Breton
> > www.graxx.ca <http://www.graxx.ca/>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>> <
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:
> > eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>> On Behalf Of Studio
> > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 12:04 PM
> > To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com><mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
> > >
> > Cc: John Bodkin <john.bodkin(a)dawkinscolour.co.uk
<mailto:john.bodkin@dawkinscolour.co.uk><mailto:
> > john.bodkin(a)dawkinscolour.co.uk
<mailto:john.bodkin@dawkinscolour.co.uk>>>
> > Subject: [ECI-EN] Fogra51 and 52 looks warmer compared to 39L
> > I wonder if you can help me.
> > We have recently upgraded our Epson proofers and EFI RIP in order to have
> > the facility to produce Fogra certified proofs to 51L and 52L
> > specifications.
> > Having spent quite a long while creating media profiles for both of these
> > plus 39L, it seems that all Fogra 51 and 52 proofs appear ?warmer? than 39L
> > results.
> > We have been using 39L for many years now and have superb results. Part of
> > our work is fine art photography reproduction, so accurate colour is
> > essential.
> > When proofing on our Fogra approved 39L stock, the results are as we would
> > expect. Not so with 51 and 52.
> > We have a viewing booth fitted with the latest generation VeriVide tubes
> > conforming to ISO 3664:2009 conditions.
> > All proofs we produce pass Fogra certification with very low deltaE
> > values, but 51 and 52 proofs always differ from 39L.
> > I have had proofs made by a qualified third party and their results mirror
> > ours.
> > Could you give me any advice as to whether this problem can be resolved?
> > Yours Faithfully,
> > John Bodkin
> >
> >
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8:54 a.m.
New subject: ECI-EN Digest, Vol 90, Issue 4
Dear Ingi,
- Zitat ausblenden -
*- and then take the same document and prepare it for
printing
according to Fogra 51, convert all colours to CMYK and proof it
according to Fogra 51 on Fogra 51 approved proofing media, you should
get the SAME visual result in all colours.*
in a side-by-side comparison this can
only be achieved by an absolute
colorimetric conversion which you do not want usually.
Thus your expectation won't come true in practice.
Best regards
Claas
1511
days inactive
1512
days old
eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
Claas Bickeböller -
Ingi Karlsson -
Jens Trost