2:46 p.m.
Hallo Eci-mailing-list members,
I have encountered a problem with a PDF/X-3 (2002) file which I was
trying to print with an offset printing house.
Embedded in this PDF file are several RGB and CMYK files with their
profiles. The PDF should have been separated by the RIP of the
printing house to their output profile by IN-RIP-Separation.
Unfortunately only the RGB files where printed correctly (according
to the proof) but not the CMYK pictures. The printing house told me,
that these CMYK files where not converted by their RIP because only
one kind of files can be put into a PDF X-3 file (RGB or CMYK but not
both of them simultaniously).
The PDF was created by indesign (CS 3) by the direct export function
(!! not by creating a postscript file and then distilling it to a
PDF!!). The PDF file had pictures in RGB and CMYK with their single
profiles embedded. Afterwards I made a preflight test with Adobe
Acrobat (CS3) and it found no problems with that file (Konform. PDF/
x-3:2002). Output - intend: ISO-coated. All pictures where nicely put
in the PDF file: RGB with their RGB profiles and CMYK pictures with
their Cmyk-profiles.
I proofed the PDF file with GMG (ColorProof 4) sending the pdf file
to the rip (ColorProof also) and then printed it with the ISO coated
profile on GMG Paper. Everything was fine and showed like the
softproof in Indesign, Acrobat or PS.
Does somebody have any idea what could be the problem or if maybe the
printing house is wrong.
If it is true, that it is not possible to have both RGB files and
CMYK files together in one PDF x-3 file, then why Acrobat gives no
error message after the preflight??
Thank you very much for any suggestions.
Best regards
Norbert Heyl
STUDIO NORBERT HEYL
Norbert Heyl, Dipl. Volksw.
Düsseldorf: Tel. +49 (0) 211 934 77 51
Fax. +49 (0)211 5448800
Venezia: Tel/Fax. +39 041 520 2434
Mobile (D): +49 (0) 171 126 30 97
Mobile (IT): +39 348 6936970
info(a)norbertheyl.com
info(a)colibrimarketing.com
AIM: norbertheyl
Skype: norbertheyl
www.norbertheyl.com
www.colibrimarketing.com
Postal addresses:
Studio Norbert Heyl
Germany: Birkenhof 7, D-40225 Düsseldorf
Italy: Dorsoduro 2212, I-30123 Venice
This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail
in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-
mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the
material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
2:56 p.m.
Hello Norbert,
Just use the PDF/X-1a Export from InDesign.
InDesign will do the correct colormanagement of all tagged PDF content
exactly like PDF/X-3 compliant proofing systems or CtP-RIPs.
For file transfer, PDF/X-1a is much more secure and You have the
possibility to use blackpoint compensation (not possible in PDF/X-3...).
Compared to PDF/X-1a, PDF/X-3 adds no value, but adds a lot more
potential sources for wrong color rendering of files.
Regards
Jan-Peter
Studio Norbert Heyl wrote:
Hallo Eci-mailing-list members,
I have encountered a problem with a PDF/X-3 (2002) file which I was
trying to print with an offset printing house.
Embedded in this PDF file are several RGB and CMYK files with their
profiles. The PDF should have been separated by the RIP of the
printing house to their output profile by IN-RIP-Separation.
Unfortunately only the RGB files where printed correctly (according to
the proof) but not the CMYK pictures. The printing house told me, that
these CMYK files where not converted by their RIP because only one
kind of files can be put into a PDF X-3 file (RGB or CMYK but not both
of them simultaniously).
The PDF was created by indesign (CS 3) by the direct export function
(!! not by creating a postscript file and then distilling it to a
PDF!!). The PDF file had pictures in RGB and CMYK with their single
profiles embedded. Afterwards I made a preflight test with Adobe
Acrobat (CS3) and it found no problems with that file (Konform.
PDF/x-3:2002). Output - intend: ISO-coated. All pictures where nicely
put in the PDF file: RGB with their RGB profiles and CMYK pictures
with their Cmyk-profiles.
I proofed the PDF file with GMG (ColorProof 4) sending the pdf file to
the rip (ColorProof also) and then printed it with the ISO coated
profile on GMG Paper. Everything was fine and showed like the
softproof in Indesign, Acrobat or PS.
Does somebody have any idea what could be the problem or if maybe the
printing house is wrong.
If it is true, that it is not possible to have both RGB files and CMYK
files together in one PDF x-3 file, then why Acrobat gives no error
message after the preflight??
Thank you very much for any suggestions.
Best regards
Norbert Heyl
*STUDIO NORBERT HEYL*
Norbert Heyl, Dipl. Volksw.
*Düsseldorf:* Tel. +49 (0) 211 934 77 51
Fax. +49 (0)211 5448800
*Venezia:* Tel/Fax. +39 041 520 2434
Mobile (D): +49 (0) 171 126 30 97
Mobile (IT): +39 348 6936970
info(a)norbertheyl.com <mailto:info@norbertheyl.com>
info(a)colibrimarketing.com
AIM: norbertheyl
Skype: norbertheyl
www.norbertheyl.com
www.colibrimarketing.com
Postal addresses:
*Studio Norbert Heyl*
Germany: Birkenhof 7, D-40225 *Düsseldorf*
Italy: Dorsoduro 2212, I-30123 *Venice*
This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If
you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail.
Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
3:09 p.m.
On Mar 10, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Jan-Peter Homann wrote:
Hello Norbert,
Just use the PDF/X-1a Export from InDesign.
InDesign will do the correct colormanagement of all tagged PDF content
exactly like PDF/X-3 compliant proofing systems or CtP-RIPs.
For file transfer, PDF/X-1a is much more secure and You have the
possibility to use blackpoint compensation (not possible in PDF/
X-3...).
Wow, are there really still no PDF/X-3 products that have implemented
their own black point compensation? This has been documented by Adobe
for quite some time. It seems like an obvious and necessary
requirement for a PDF/X-3 workflow to be fully functional, especially
until we get to full ICC v4 (not supported under current PDF/X-3
either), in order to take advantage of the ICC PRMG.
Are there PDF/X-3 workflow products that run on Mac OS X? I know there
is a black point implementation there, that developers could just
directly hook into without having to write it themselves, although at
present it doesn't work correctly. (Point being, if there are
developers, we should lobby Apple to fix it, and then they can simply
use code that's already been written.)
Another option is that this is implemented in the Adobe CMM, which is
available standalone for both Windows and Mac OS X. I do believe there
are some limitations, in particular with respect to devicelink
profiles and 5+ channel support. But at least for making color
separations from RGB to CMYK, at least BPC could be used.
Very surprising.
Chris Murphy
4:44 p.m.
Hello list, hello chris
The problem are the PDF specs and the ISO standard, which can´t
transport the information to use blackpoint comepnesation.
For PDF/X-3 workflows with Adobe CS standard settings, it is quite
dangerous to work with RGB data in InDesign and push the PDF/X-3 button.
As a result, all RGB content is tagged with the relative colorimetric
intent, the information for blackpoint compensation is NOT stored in the
PDF/X-3 file.
The PDF/X-3 compliant print provider has now to render RGB to CMYK
relative colorimetric WITHOUT blackpoint compensation.
This can lead to a massive loss in details in dark areas.
By the way PDF/X-3 (and also PDF/X-4) state, that the colors of the file
are only valid for the Output Intent specified by the sender of the
PDF/X-3 file.
The standards PDF/X-and PDF/X-4 do NOT specify, under which
circumstances the PDF/X-3 / -4 file could be rendered with predictable
and pleasant results to another printing condition.
But looking at the history of PDF/X-3, the idea that the delivered
PDF-file could be easily rendered to different printing conditions, was
core goal of PDF/X-3 in comparison to PDF/X-1a.
Today, the most predictable and controllable way to convert PDF-files
from the delivered printing condition to another printing condition is
the usage of PDF/X-1a for file delivery and a PDF colorserver with
optimized devicelink-profiles (or optimized settings for dynamic
devicelinks...) for the conversion.
If I compare the historical goals of PDF/X-3 with the current results,
PDF/X-3 is - in my view - a failed public betatest for the
colormanagement of print-data.
PDF/X-4 is the wrong colormanagement concept of PDF/X-3 with additional
complexity through transparencies.
For the future, I hope that ISO TC 130 and/or GWG specify a "CMYKonly
PDF/X-4" version (or GWG recommendation) like PDF/X-1a plus transparencies.
A "CMYKonly PDF/X-4" recommendation by GWG would have the advantage,
that it could be specified on top of the ISO standard PDF/X-4 without
the need to change the ISO-standard itself. This could be realized in
months instead of years for the ISO procedures...
Regards
Jan-Peter
Chris Murphy wrote:
On Mar 10, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Jan-Peter Homann wrote:
--
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
homann colormanagement ------ fon/fax +49 30 611 075 18
Jan-Peter Homann ------------- mobile +49 171 54 70 358
Christinenstr. 21 ------ http://www.colormanagement.de
10119 Berlin -------- mailto:homann@colormanagement.de
*********** Neue Adresse / new adress ************
Hello Norbert,
Just use the PDF/X-1a Export from InDesign.
InDesign will do the correct colormanagement of all tagged PDF content
exactly like PDF/X-3 compliant proofing systems or CtP-RIPs.
For file transfer, PDF/X-1a is much more secure and You have the
possibility to use blackpoint compensation (not possible in PDF/
X-3...).
Wow, are there really still no PDF/X-3 products that have implemented
their own black point compensation? This has been documented by Adobe
for quite some time. It seems like an obvious and necessary
requirement for a PDF/X-3 workflow to be fully functional, especially
until we get to full ICC v4 (not supported under current PDF/X-3
either), in order to take advantage of the ICC PRMG.
Are there PDF/X-3 workflow products that run on Mac OS X? I know there
is a black point implementation there, that developers could just
directly hook into without having to write it themselves, although at
present it doesn't work correctly. (Point being, if there are
developers, we should lobby Apple to fix it, and then they can simply
use code that's already been written.)
Another option is that this is implemented in the Adobe CMM, which is
available standalone for both Windows and Mac OS X. I do believe there
are some limitations, in particular with respect to devicelink
profiles and 5+ channel support. But at least for making color
separations from RGB to CMYK, at least BPC could be used.
Very surprising.
Chris Murphy
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11:27 p.m.
On Mar 10, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Jan-Peter Homann wrote:
As a result, all RGB content is tagged with the relative colorimetric
intent, the information for blackpoint compensation is NOT stored in
the
PDF/X-3 file.
I see what you mean. There's no metadata support for "RelCol + BPC".
The PDF/X-3 doc contains metadata tag for rendering intent with value
only set to RelCol (or one of the other three official rendering
intents, as set by the application that creates the PDF.)
So we could only use BPC through assumption, which then kinda defeats
the point of PDF/X-3. Well, I think the assumption of bpc with relcol
is probably a good one or people would use AbsCol. I think that this
is not an unfair work around, but I do see the point.
For the future, I hope that ISO TC 130 and/or GWG
specify a "CMYKonly
PDF/X-4" version (or GWG recommendation) like PDF/X-1a plus
transparencies.
A "CMYKonly PDF/X-4" recommendation by GWG would have the advantage,
that it could be specified on top of the ISO standard PDF/X-4 without
the need to change the ISO-standard itself. This could be realized in
months instead of years for the ISO procedures...
Interesting.
Chris Murphy
3:10 p.m.
Hello Norbert,
As Olaf Druemmer stated: A PDF/ X-3 file can contain both tagged RGB and tagged CMYK
images.
You are asking if the printing house was wrong.
That question in fact depends on the type of agreement that you had with the printing
house.
If you agreed with them that they would accept PDF / X-3, I would think the problem is in
their colormanagement set-up on their side.
However many, if not most, printers do not yet accept PDF / X-3 files (at least in my
country) and still promote the use of PDF/ X-1a.
In that case indeed the safe way is to export to PDF/X-1a. Make sure to use an icc profile
that is accepted by the printer and relates to the paper to be used.
Best regards,
Jo Brunenberg
ROTO SMEETS
Studio Norbert Heyl wrote:
> Hallo Eci-mailing-list members,
> I have encountered a problem with a PDF/X-3 (2002) file which I was
> trying to print with an offset printing house.
> Embedded in this PDF file are several RGB and CMYK files with their
> profiles. The PDF should have been separated by the RIP of the
> printing house to their output profile by IN-RIP-Separation.
> Unfortunately only the RGB files where printed correctly (according to
> the proof) but not the CMYK pictures. The printing house told me, that
> these CMYK files where not converted by their RIP because only one
> kind of files can be put into a PDF X-3 file (RGB or CMYK but not both
> of them simultaniously).
>
> The PDF was created by indesign (CS 3) by the direct export function
> (!! not by creating a postscript file and then distilling it to a
> PDF!!). The PDF file had pictures in RGB and CMYK with their single
> profiles embedded. Afterwards I made a preflight test with Adobe
> Acrobat (CS3) and it found no problems with that file (Konform.
> PDF/x-3:2002). Output - intend: ISO-coated. All pictures where nicely
> put in the PDF file: RGB with their RGB profiles and CMYK pictures
> with their Cmyk-profiles.
>
> I proofed the PDF file with GMG (ColorProof 4) sending the pdf file to
> the rip (ColorProof also) and then printed it with the ISO coated
> profile on GMG Paper. Everything was fine and showed like the
> softproof in Indesign, Acrobat or PS.
>
> Does somebody have any idea what could be the problem or if maybe the
> printing house is wrong.
> If it is true, that it is not possible to have both RGB files and CMYK
> files together in one PDF x-3 file, then why Acrobat gives no error
> message after the preflight??
>
> Thank you very much for any suggestions.
> Best regards
> Norbert Heyl
>
>
> *STUDIO NORBERT HEYL*
> Norbert Heyl, Dipl. Volksw.
>
> *Düsseldorf:* Tel. +49 (0) 211 934 77 51
> Fax. +49 (0)211 5448800
> *Venezia:* Tel/Fax. +39 041 520 2434
>
> Mobile (D): +49 (0) 171 126 30 97
> Mobile (IT): +39 348 6936970
10:02 p.m.
Dear Norbert,
On 10.03.2008, at 14:46, Studio Norbert Heyl wrote:
Unfortunately only the RGB files where printed
correctly (according
to the proof) but not the CMYK pictures. The printing house told
me, that these CMYK files where not converted by their RIP because
only one kind of files can be put into a PDF X-3 file (RGB or CMYK
but not both of them simultaniously).
...
If it is true, that it is not possible to have both RGB files and
CMYK files together in one PDF x-3 file, then why Acrobat gives no
error message after the preflight??
Inside a PDF/X-3 file all color spaces can be mixed with the
exception of DeviceRGB. Thus I have to conclude that the printing
house you are working with is not processing PDF/X-3 files according
to the PDF/X-3 standard.
An easy way to find out whether or not a printing house (or the
process they are using) complies with PDF/X-3 is to output the Altona
Test Suite (the "Visual" page will be sufficient in your case - it
test all kinds of color aspects; the other important page, the
"Technical" page focuses on overprints and font types). It will be
necessary to read the documentation for the test suite in order to
evaluate output from the Altona Test Suite. The Altona Test Suite is
a free download from the website of the ECI (www.eci.org, see
download section).
There is also an Altona Test Suite Application Kit available that
comes with prints in a number of printing processes (including for
example paper types Coated, Web Coated and Uncoated for sheet fed
offset printing) - see www.altonatestsuite.com.
Regards,
Olaf Druemmer
--
Olaf Druemmer | Managing Director | callas software GmbH |
Schoenhauser Allee 6/7 | 10119 Berlin
Tel +49.30.4439031-0 | Fax +49.30.4416402 |
o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com | www.callassoftware.com
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 59615 | Geschäftsführung: Olaf
Drümmer, Ulrich Frotscher
~~~~~~~ See you at: ~~~~~~~
---> International PDF/A Conference, Amsterdam, Netherlands, April
10-11, 2008
(For early bird registration go to http://pdfa.org/doku.php?
id=register:en )
3:58 p.m.
New subject: PSRgravureHWC profile
Hello list,
As an assiduous list reader and Altona test suite user, I need a small
clarification about the PSRgravureHWC profile. This profile having
disappeared from the english download zone of the ECI Web siteand in
its last update of the file Excel MKcheck10.xls, on the first sheet
Start, it is indicated to use profiles it PSRgravureSC for paper HWC.
The characterizations for profile HWC are however present in sheet PSR.
It gives me trouble, I thought that PSRgravureHWC was replaced by the
SC paper and I was not the only one, because when Kodak has updated
its Matchprint certification process, the PSRgravureHWC profiles has
also disappeared and left place to PSRgravureSC profile! So could you
confirm that the profile to use for HWC-paper is PSRgravureHWC and not
PSRgravureSC as set in the MKcheck10.xls file.
Hope you'll understand my bad english,
Best regards
Salutations,
Pierre Robben¦Deloge-Group¦Brussels¦pierre.robben(a)deloge.com
8:07 p.m.
New subject: PSRgravureHWC profile
Hi Pierre,
On 11.03.2008, at 15:58, Pierre Robben wrote:
This profile having disappeared from the english
download zone of
the ECI Web site
what makes you believe this profile is not there for download anymore
on the English part of the ECI website?
Olaf
--
Olaf Druemmer | Managing Director | callas software GmbH |
Schoenhauser Allee 6/7 | 10119 Berlin
Tel +49.30.4439031-0 | Fax +49.30.4416402 |
o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com | www.callassoftware.com
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 59615 | Geschäftsführung: Olaf
Drümmer, Ulrich Frotscher
~~~~~~~ See you at: ~~~~~~~
---> AIIM/OnDemand, Boston, March 4-6, 2008
---> International PDF/A Conference, Amsterdam, Netherlands, April
10-11, 2008
(For early bird registration go to http://pdfa.org/doku.php?
id=register:en )
8:23 a.m.
New subject: PSRgravureHWC profile
Hello Olaf,
Thanks for your reply.
Just have a look to these pages
http://www.eci.org/eci/en/042_gravure.php
http://www.eci.org/eci/de/042_tiefdruck.php
Of course, now, I could download it, but my main question was about
the MKcheck10.xls excel file (english version) received from Fogra,
where, in the Start sheet , the PSRgravureHWC wasn't mentioned anymore.
Even, it's told to use PSRgravureSC !
Regards,
Pierre
Le 11-mars-08 à 20:07, Olaf Drümmer a écrit :
Hi Pierre,
On 11.03.2008, at 15:58, Pierre Robben wrote:
This profile having disappeared from the english
download zone of
the ECI Web site
what makes you believe this profile is not there for download
anymore on the English part of the ECI website?
Olaf
--
Olaf Druemmer | Managing Director | callas software GmbH |
Schoenhauser Allee 6/7 | 10119 Berlin
Tel +49.30.4439031-0 | Fax +49.30.4416402 | o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com
| www.callassoftware.com
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 59615 | Geschäftsführung: Olaf
Drümmer, Ulrich Frotscher
~~~~~~~ See you at: ~~~~~~~
---> AIIM/OnDemand, Boston, March 4-6, 2008
---> International PDF/A Conference, Amsterdam, Netherlands, April
10-11, 2008
(For early bird registration go to http://pdfa.org/doku.php?id=register:en
)
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en 
8:52 a.m.
New subject: PSRgravureHWC profile
Hello Pierre,
OK, now I see. Obviously there seems to be some inconsistency. I will
try to make sure this gets resolved some time this week (I am
currently traveling, with limited access to the internet...).
Regards,
Olaf
On 12.03.2008, at 08:23, Pierre Robben wrote:
Hello Olaf,
Thanks for your reply.
Just have a look to these pages
http://www.eci.org/eci/en/042_gravure.php
http://www.eci.org/eci/de/042_tiefdruck.php
Of course, now, I could download it, but my main question was about
the MKcheck10.xls excel file (english version) received from Fogra,
where, in the Start sheet , the PSRgravureHWC wasn't mentioned
anymore.
<pastedGraphic.png>
Even, it's told to use PSRgravureSC !
Regards,
Pierre
Le 11-mars-08 à 20:07, Olaf Drümmer a écrit :
--
Olaf Druemmer | Managing Director | callas software GmbH |
Schoenhauser Allee 6/7 | 10119 Berlin
Tel +49.30.4439031-0 | Fax +49.30.4416402 |
o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com | www.callassoftware.com
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 59615 | Geschäftsführung: Olaf
Drümmer, Ulrich Frotscher
~~~~~~~ See you at: ~~~~~~~
---> AIIM/OnDemand, Boston, March 4-6, 2008
---> International PDF/A Conference, Amsterdam, Netherlands, April
10-11, 2008
(For early bird registration go to http://pdfa.org/doku.php?
id=register:en )
Hi Pierre,
On 11.03.2008, at 15:58, Pierre Robben wrote:
<pastedGraphic.png>
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en This profile having disappeared from the english
download zone of
the ECI Web site
what makes you believe this profile is not there for download
anymore on the English part of the ECI website?
Olaf
--
Olaf Druemmer | Managing Director | callas software GmbH |
Schoenhauser Allee 6/7 | 10119 Berlin
Tel +49.30.4439031-0 | Fax +49.30.4416402 |
o.druemmer(a)callassoftware.com | www.callassoftware.com
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 59615 | Geschäftsführung: Olaf
Drümmer, Ulrich Frotscher
~~~~~~~ See you at: ~~~~~~~
---> AIIM/OnDemand, Boston, March 4-6, 2008
---> International PDF/A Conference, Amsterdam, Netherlands,
April 10-11, 2008
(For early bird registration go to http://pdfa.org/
doku.php?id=register:en )
_______________________________________________
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10 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Chris Murphy -
Jan-Peter Homann -
Jo Brunenberg -
Olaf Drümmer -
Pierre Robben -
Studio Norbert Heyl