2:11 p.m.
Hello Jouni,
correct.
... digital-proof prints *should* agree with ...
This is *should* and not *shall* which is a big difference in ISO
standardization.
Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards
Karl Michael Meinecke
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm)
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Marttila Jouni [mailto:Jouni.Marttila@m-real.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. April 2005 12:56
An: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de'
Betreff: RE: [ECI-EN] Delta E tolerances for proofing
Hello Karl
Here is direct citation from ISO 12647-2:2004, page 6
"The primary colour solids of digital-proof prints should agree with Table 2
within one half of the deviation tolerance specified in Table 3."
If deviation tolerance is set to 5 for prints shouldn't this comment above
mean that for proofs it should be 2,5 for primaries?
BR Jouni Marttila
_________________________________________
Jouni Marttila
Project Manager
M-real Corporation
Technology Centre Kirkniemi
FIN-08800 KIRKNIEMI
Finland
Tel: +358 (0)10 464 2908
Fax: +358 (0)10 464 2412
Mobile: +358 (0)50 381 9085
Email: jouni.marttila(a)m-real.com
www.m-real.com
-----Original Message-----
From: eci-en-admin(a)lists.transmedia.de
[mailto:eci-en-admin@lists.transmedia.de] On Behalf Of Meinecke, Karl
Michael (bvdm)
Sent: 28. huhtikuuta 2005 13:27
To: 'eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de'
Subject: AW: [ECI-EN] Delta E tolerances for proofing
Hi Belinda,
the Fogra requirements for Delta E tolerances for proofing (average of 4 and
a maximum of 10) are according to ISO 12647-2:2004 (Process Standard
Offset). We are recommending the same values in our "MedienStandard Druck
2004" (i.e. Media Standard Print, english translation available with next
edition September 2005).
Lower tolerances might be necessary for "critical appraisal" eg. of grey
tones. Some customers require lower tolerances (eg average 2.5 or 3 instead
of 4 for the patches of Fogra mediawedge www.mediawedge.com) but this is
*not* the standard requirement (ISO).
Freundliche Gruesse - Kind Regards
Karl Michael Meinecke
Bundesverband Druck und Medien e.V. (bvdm)
German Printing and Media Industries Federation (bvdm) Biebricher Allee 79 |
D-65187 Wiesbaden
Postfach 18 69 | D-65008 Wiesbaden
Fon +49(0)611 - 80 31 68 | Fax +49(0)611 - 80 32 68 mailto:km@bvdm-online.de
| URL www.bvdm.org
------------------------------------------------------
ATS | Altona Test Suite Application Kit www.altonatestsuite.com DPF |
Digitalproof-Forum 2005 Stuttgart www.digitalproof-forum.de MSD |
MedienStandard Druck 2004 www.bvdm.org/Aktuelles/Downloads.php
bvdm-Publikationen recherchieren und bestellen http://www.point-online.de
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Belinda Beckinsale [mailto:bbeckinsale@sinnottbros.com.au]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. April 2005 00:57
An: eci-en(a)lists.transmedia.de
Betreff: [ECI-EN] Delta E tolerances for proofing
Hi Everyone,
I was wondering if anybody would have any information on what delta e
tolerances different organisations are using with regard to the maximum and
average delta e differences between a proof and a printed sheet, and also
between proofs on a day to day repeatability basis. The only thing I have
been able to find is that fogra demand an average of 4 and a maximum of 10
based on their media wedge. Does anyone know what standards other bodies
use, or have any relevant information on what would be an acceptable
standard to expect and why (if possible)?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Bee
Belinda Beckinsale
Sinnott Bros Pty Ltd
4/85-91 O'Riordan Street, Alexandria NSW 2015
Ph (02) 93539527 Fax (02) 93134597
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8:26 p.m.
New subject: AW: Delta E tolerances for proofing
I'm surprised that Fogra, let alone an ISO standard would even fool
around with �E76 (delta E 1976). The caveats for doing so are in my
opinion greater than the value of having such a tolerance. I'd expect
�E94 or �Ecmc would be favored, and ideally it would be based on �E00.
�E76 is frequently very misleading. A �E76 value of 10 for yellow is no
where near as problematic in a proofing context than for blue, for
example. Such a �E for blue would be unacceptable for most quality
conscious printers and print buyers.
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
-------------------------------------------------------------
Co-author "Real World Color Management, 2nd Edition"
Published by PeachPit Press (ISBN 0-321-26722-2)
8:30 p.m.
New subject: ISO 2864-1 process colour inks for ISO 12647/2-2004
Hi
What do the members of this list consider to be a reason Delta e tolerance
for these inks, against the 12647/2 L a b process ink solid targets and on a
'batch to batch' basis?
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
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10:02 a.m.
New subject: ISO 2864-1 process colour inks for ISO 12647/2-2004
Hi Paul,
I am not sure whether I correctly understand your question.
Regarding reasonable DeltaE tolerances in daily business:
The DeltaE 5 of ISO 12647-2 are not too high as side effects need to be
taken into account:
- measurement differences caused by different spectrophotometers,
especially if you compare measurements of different brands (e.g. X-Rite
vs. GretagMacbeth)
- influence of paper color
If you print with preselected materials lower DeltaE is an option
However it's not easy to evaluate standard conformity of inks
correctly. This requires extremely expensive equipment (printability
tester, lab environment, ..) and the use of another international
standard: ISO 2846 not ISO 12647-2.
So all you can do in real live is printing on your production press and
compare with the aim valaues of 12647-2.
Regards,
Florian
Am 18.05.2005 um 20:30 schrieb Paul Sherfield:
Hi
What do the members of this list consider to be a reason Delta e
tolerance
for these inks, against the 12647/2 L a b process ink solid targets
and on a
'batch to batch' basis?
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended
solely
for the use of addressee. If you are not the intended recipient of this
message, any disclosure, copying or other distribution is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in
error,
please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Email
may
be susceptible to data corruption, interception and unauthorised
amendment.
We do not accept liability for any such corruption, interception or
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any
action or inaction by the recipient as a result of advice or
information
contained within this email.
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11:02 a.m.
New subject: ISO 2864-1 process colour inks for ISO 12647/2-2004
At 10:02 19-5-2005 +0200, you wrote:
Hi Paul,
However it's not easy to evaluate standard conformity of inks correctly.
This requires extremely expensive equipment (printability tester, lab
environment, ..) and the use of another international standard: ISO 2846
not ISO 12647-2.
So all you can do in real live is printing on your production press and
compare with the aim valaues of 12647-2.
Regards,
Florian
Am 18.05.2005 um 20:30 schrieb Paul Sherfield:
>Hi
>
>What do the members of this list consider to be a reason Delta e tolerance
>for these inks, against the 12647/2 L a b process ink solid targets and on a
>'batch to batch' basis?
>
>Regards
>
>Paul Sherfield
>
>
Hi Paul,
Florian is right stating that the control of ink is very expensive and
requires a lot of equipment and experience.
Some research institutes such as UGRA are providing these measuring services.
I know that some vendors (such as BASF and SunChemical) provide those
measurements too. It's not free of charge!
Most probably BASF/K+E ( I don't remember their new name, right now) in the
UK will be able to do that too.
I copied this e-mail to the UK branch
Regards, Henk
7:56 p.m.
New subject: ISO 2864-1 process colour inks for ISO 12647/2-2004
Henk Gianotten wrote
At 10:02 19-5-2005 +0200, you wrote:
Hi
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was aware of the 5 delta e 'standard' within
12647/2. But I am finding a greater variation in cyan inks than this figure.
I am using a SpectroEye and it's 'BestMatch' function to check the process
inks when helping UK printers go to ISO. This is when I am noticing the ink
variations.
I am aware of the interoperability issues of Spectrophotometers, but as the
ISO standards are based on delta e 76, a figure of 5 for a cyan seems very
high.
When set against the very tight proofing standards required in the UK,
halving the figures for the Fogra Media Wedge, an ink which can vary to this
amount and in which direction, makes some other colour management tolerances
further back in the workflow look pointless!
Also I am talking to xsys in the UK re this matter, via their UK dealer
Litho Suppliers.
Regards
Paul Sherfield
The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd
Telephone: 01442 871752
Mobile: 07899 906385
Apple Solutions Expert-Print & Publishing
This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended solely
for the use of addressee. If you are not the intended recipient of this
message, any disclosure, copying or other distribution is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error,
please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Email may
be susceptible to data corruption, interception and unauthorised amendment.
We do not accept liability for any such corruption, interception or
amendment or the consequences thereof. We do not accept liability for any
action or inaction by the recipient as a result of advice or information
contained within this email.
Hi Paul,
However it's not easy to evaluate standard conformity of inks correctly.
This requires extremely expensive equipment (printability tester, lab
environment, ..) and the use of another international standard: ISO 2846
not ISO 12647-2.
So all you can do in real live is printing on your production press and
compare with the aim valaues of 12647-2.
Regards,
Florian
Am 18.05.2005 um 20:30 schrieb Paul Sherfield:
> Hi
>
> What do the members of this list consider to be a reason Delta e tolerance
> for these inks, against the 12647/2 L a b process ink solid targets and on a
> 'batch to batch' basis?
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Sherfield
>
>
Hi Paul,
Florian is right stating that the control of ink is very expensive and
requires a lot of equipment and experience.
Some research institutes such as UGRA are providing these measuring services.
I know that some vendors (such as BASF and SunChemical) provide those
measurements too. It's not free of charge!
Most probably BASF/K+E ( I don't remember their new name, right now) in the
UK will be able to do that too.
I copied this e-mail to the UK branch
Regards, Henk
6921
days inactive
6942
days old
eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
5 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Chris Murphy -
Florian Süßl -
Henk Gianotten -
Meinecke, Karl Michael (bvdm) -
Paul Sherfield