3:11 p.m.
Peter,
No direct experience printing on textiles -- so far.
The same kinds of “rules” ought to apply to textiles as on any other kinds of substrates.
Someone has to find out what a realistic TAC is and communicate that through.
I have a friend who works at Fuji. He tells me he has a client who prints on textile
through large-format inkjet printers, driven by Caldera RIP. I never asked him
specifically how he does its ink limiting but he uses Barbieri 8mm aperture to collect
measurements for ICC profiling.
Once the profile is made, with a “realistic TAC”, it goes into the RIP.
But I’m not privy to the rest of their workflow. If anyone uses the printer profile
upstream, in Photoshop…
Does that help?
MfG / Roger
From: eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> On Behalf Of Peter Kleinheider
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 1:43 AM
To: eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Linearization
Roger,
as the original question relates to inkjet printing on textile, what is your experience
there.
best
Peter
On 23.10.2018, at 14:20, graxx(a)videotron.ca <mailto:graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Further to Kamil und Peter excellent komments,
The only “sensible” solution, in my opinion, whenever TAC is deemed so important, is to
defer its judgement as further down the line as possible, in terms of workflow. In other
words, use a full RGB workflow at the client side and let the printer, who knows most
about print conditions, decide. Let him carry the responsibility should something “go
wrong”.
Most printers don’t have the time or the resource to do any kind of testing, not the ones
that I know and worked with or for over the past. No wonder they are so conservative! At
the very least, in my opinion, a printer should be able to honor “bare-minimum” kind of
industry practices, like Adobe Photoshop 260% Uncoated, 260% is a age-old figure
associated with Uncoated paper in the industry. It traces its day to Advertising Rates
& Data. To me, it is universally agreed-upon “standard” (target). If a printer finds
himself unable to meet 260% TAC on Uncoated paper, perhaps it is time to consider changing
printer or having a serious conversation with the printer technical representative, which
is usually the prepress manager who does not have a clue as to what is going on with color
reproduction… (I’m not trying to be sarcastic, just “realistic”)
Know that I personally consider 260% to be “conservative” in terms of TAC and, given the
knowledge of some presses, and some past work I seen printed on Uncoated paper, like some
Cirque du Soleil lavish, 4 color process brochures, 270% -- 280% and even 290%, it is
not far-fetch. Anything is possible when you have the customer sitting by the press side
and willing to pay for additional press time and material.
As a prepress policy, I would not do all Uncoated jobs at 280% but for those that are
warranted, why not? The customer is not going to be disappointed. I suspect many shops
have slowly increased their TAC over time. At least, the “better” printers I know have.
It’s not that hard to determine but it takes the time of one person, like Peter, to do
it!
TAC for Coated paper ought to be 320%, at least. Depends on the nature of the ink coverage
over all.
It should be dictated by the images, whether they are heavy and what is the surface
represented by those “dark areas”?
At one extreme, you could get away with 400% TAC in small areas but never over large
areas, that’s asking for trouble.
Higher TAC remains useful to push contrast in images but here are some last comments…
A) It comes down to prepress policy. I have worked in environments where they privilege
“automation” over “customization” or “optimization”, meaning, they don’t stop the line to
look at individual images. PDFs come in through the FTP pipeline and away to plates they
go. The least people touch the job on the way to the press, the happier management is. So
all arrangements, if any, have to be made ahead of time with customers, that’s the only
alternative.
B) If discussions are made ahead of production, a certain kind of planning becomes
possible and TAC *can* be discussed between the client and the printer.
C) Most printers I know here are not that knowledgeable, technically. It seems to me that
“technical printing knowledge” is slowly disappearing from the face of the earth, on both
sides of the print equation, on the client side and on the printer side.
D) It takes time to build quality. At the rate everything is going today, quality becomes
second to quantity, the idea is to produce an ever larger number of widgets at decreasing
costs. Economics is the driving factor.
My VERY humble set of experiences.
/ Roger Breton
<http://www.graxx.ca/> www.graxx.ca
From: <mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com <
<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
eci-en-bounces(a)lists.callassoftware.com> On Behalf Of Kamil Tresnak
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:36 AM
To: <mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com> eci-en(a)lists.callassoftware.com
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Linearization
Hi Dwight, in accordance with Peter (and by my long term experinece) - I do not use
algorithms (even if the RIP contains it). Much better is have printed a good TAC target,
make some measurement with a good handheld, and a carefully examine the material and
overprint patches.
Cheers, Kamil,
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:50 AM Peter Kleinheider < <mailto:peter@inpetto.cc>
peter(a)inpetto.cc> wrote:
Dwight,
For ink limit, we work with values from experience. It depends on various variables like
the used ink, the substrate, the resolution, the printing speed, usage of light inks, ...
We have not yet found an algorithm that calculates it based on the linearized single
channels. Hence we use a TAC chart when we have a new combination of parameters. As
printed ares above the maximum ink threshold may have "artefacts" that cannot
get caught using a spectrophotopmeter, a user has to decide what limit to set. Important:
it shall define the maximum TAC that can get printed on that substrate. A further
reduction to less TAC should be done when generating the ICC profile.
Happy to hear about other experiences.
best
Peter
On 22.10.2018, at 13:31, Dwight Kelly <
<mailto:dkelly@apago.com> dkelly(a)apago.com> wrote:
Hello,
I’m looking for references on device linearization techniques and algorithms.
Have an inkjet textile printer that’s proving difficult to characterize because of the
amount of ink it lays down. Don’t want to just pick an arbitrary ink limit. Would rather
calculate it empirically.
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com> ECI-EN(a)lists.callassoftware.com
<http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
7:16 p.m.
New subject: Linearization
Back in my textile days (silkscreen) I headed up a program to print 4 color process on
fabrics. TID usually came out to less than 200%. The masking got interesting.
Now we have all sorts of whiz bang gadgets but the fabric has not really changed.
I use gcr when building fabric profiles. I still use the same max percentage from 40 years
ago. 200 or less. Black starts at 20% and at the shadow is no more than 80%.
I like to take a few yards out to the shop forman and see if it is gonna fly.
Sticking around for a production run is highly recommended.
The print buyers from the fashion houses are the final test.
Best Wishes
Jacques Wolf
Atelierwolf
Color Management Solutions
917-992-2400
On Oct 25, 2018, at 9:11 AM, <graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>
<graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>> wrote:
Peter,
No direct experience printing on textiles -- so far.
The same kinds of “rules” ought to apply to textiles as on any other kinds of
substrates.
Someone has to find out what a realistic TAC is and communicate that through.
I have a friend who works at Fuji. He tells me he has a client who prints on textile
through large-format inkjet printers, driven by Caldera RIP. I never asked him
specifically how he does its ink limiting but he uses Barbieri 8mm aperture to collect
measurements for ICC profiling.
Once the profile is made, with a “realistic TAC”, it goes into the RIP.
But I’m not privy to the rest of their workflow. If anyone uses the printer profile
upstream, in Photoshop…
Does that help?
MfG / Roger
From:
eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
<eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>
On Behalf Of Peter Kleinheider
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 1:43 AM
To: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Linearization
Roger,
as the original question relates to inkjet printing on textile, what is your experience
there.
best
Peter
On 23.10.2018, at 14:20, graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Further to Kamil und Peter excellent komments,
The only “sensible” solution, in my opinion, whenever TAC is deemed so important, is to
defer its judgement as further down the line as possible, in terms of workflow. In other
words, use a full RGB workflow at the client side and let the printer, who knows most
about print conditions, decide. Let him carry the responsibility should something “go
wrong”.
Most printers don’t have the time or the resource to do any kind of testing, not the ones
that I know and worked with or for over the past. No wonder they are so conservative! At
the very least, in my opinion, a printer should be able to honor “bare-minimum” kind of
industry practices, like Adobe Photoshop 260% Uncoated, 260% is a age-old figure
associated with Uncoated paper in the industry. It traces its day to Advertising Rates
& Data. To me, it is universally agreed-upon “standard” (target). If a printer finds
himself unable to meet 260% TAC on Uncoated paper, perhaps it is time to consider changing
printer or having a serious conversation with the printer technical representative, which
is usually the prepress manager who does not have a clue as to what is going on with color
reproduction… (I’m not trying to be sarcastic, just “realistic”)
Know that I personally consider 260% to be “conservative” in terms of TAC and, given the
knowledge of some presses, and some past work I seen printed on Uncoated paper, like some
Cirque du Soleil lavish, 4 color process brochures, 270% -- 280% and even 290%, it is
not far-fetch. Anything is possible when you have the customer sitting by the press side
and willing to pay for additional press time and material.
As a prepress policy, I would not do all Uncoated jobs at 280% but for those that are
warranted, why not? The customer is not going to be disappointed. I suspect many shops
have slowly increased their TAC over time. At least, the “better” printers I know have.
It’s not that hard to determine but it takes the time of one person, like Peter, to do
it!
TAC for Coated paper ought to be 320%, at least. Depends on the nature of the ink coverage
over all.
It should be dictated by the images, whether they are heavy and what is the surface
represented by those “dark areas”?
At one extreme, you could get away with 400% TAC in small areas but never over large
areas, that’s asking for trouble.
Higher TAC remains useful to push contrast in images but here are some last comments…
A) It comes down to prepress policy. I have worked in environments where they privilege
“automation” over “customization” or “optimization”, meaning, they don’t stop the line to
look at individual images. PDFs come in through the FTP pipeline and away to plates they
go. The least people touch the job on the way to the press, the happier management is. So
all arrangements, if any, have to be made ahead of time with customers, that’s the only
alternative.
B) If discussions are made ahead of production, a certain kind of planning becomes
possible and TAC *can* be discussed between the client and the printer.
C) Most printers I know here are not that knowledgeable, technically. It seems to me that
“technical printing knowledge” is slowly disappearing from the face of the earth, on both
sides of the print equation, on the client side and on the printer side.
D) It takes time to build quality. At the rate everything is going today, quality becomes
second to quantity, the idea is to produce an ever larger number of widgets at decreasing
costs. Economics is the driving factor.
My VERY humble set of experiences.
/ Roger Breton
www.graxx.ca<http://www.graxx.ca/>
From:
eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
<eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>
On Behalf Of Kamil Tresnak
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:36 AM
To: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Linearization
Hi Dwight, in accordance with Peter (and by my long term experinece) - I do not use
algorithms (even if the RIP contains it). Much better is have printed a good TAC target,
make some measurement with a good handheld, and a carefully examine the material and
overprint patches.
Cheers, Kamil,
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:50 AM Peter Kleinheider
<peter@inpetto.cc<mailto:peter@inpetto.cc>> wrote:
Dwight,
For ink limit, we work with values from experience. It depends on various variables like
the used ink, the substrate, the resolution, the printing speed, usage of light inks,
...
We have not yet found an algorithm that calculates it based on the linearized single
channels. Hence we use a TAC chart when we have a new combination of parameters. As
printed ares above the maximum ink threshold may have "artefacts" that cannot
get caught using a spectrophotopmeter, a user has to decide what limit to set. Important:
it shall define the maximum TAC that can get printed on that substrate. A further
reduction to less TAC should be done when generating the ICC profile.
Happy to hear about other experiences.
best
Peter
On 22.10.2018, at 13:31, Dwight Kelly
<dkelly@apago.com<mailto:dkelly@apago.com>> wrote:
Hello,
I’m looking for references on device linearization techniques and algorithms.
Have an inkjet textile printer that’s proving difficult to characterize because of the
amount of ink it lays down. Don’t want to just pick an arbitrary ink limit. Would rather
calculate it empirically.
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
3:40 p.m.
New subject: Linearization
Thx Jacques,
same experience here.
best
Peter
On 25.10.2018, at 19:16, Jacques Wolf
<kolordawg@hotmail.com<mailto:kolordawg@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Back in my textile days (silkscreen) I headed up a program to print 4 color process on
fabrics. TID usually came out to less than 200%. The masking got interesting.
Now we have all sorts of whiz bang gadgets but the fabric has not really changed.
I use gcr when building fabric profiles. I still use the same max percentage from 40 years
ago. 200 or less. Black starts at 20% and at the shadow is no more than 80%.
I like to take a few yards out to the shop forman and see if it is gonna fly.
Sticking around for a production run is highly recommended.
The print buyers from the fashion houses are the final test.
Best Wishes
Jacques Wolf
Atelierwolf
Color Management Solutions
917-992-2400<tel:917-992-2400>
On Oct 25, 2018, at 9:11 AM, <graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>>
<graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca>> wrote:
Peter,
No direct experience printing on textiles -- so far.
The same kinds of “rules” ought to apply to textiles as on any other kinds of
substrates.
Someone has to find out what a realistic TAC is and communicate that through.
I have a friend who works at Fuji. He tells me he has a client who prints on textile
through large-format inkjet printers, driven by Caldera RIP. I never asked him
specifically how he does its ink limiting but he uses Barbieri 8mm aperture to collect
measurements for ICC profiling.
Once the profile is made, with a “realistic TAC”, it goes into the RIP.
But I’m not privy to the rest of their workflow. If anyone uses the printer profile
upstream, in Photoshop…
Does that help?
MfG / Roger
From:
eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
<eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>
On Behalf Of Peter Kleinheider
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 1:43 AM
To: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Linearization
Roger,
as the original question relates to inkjet printing on textile, what is your experience
there.
best
Peter
On 23.10.2018, at 14:20, graxx@videotron.ca<mailto:graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Further to Kamil und Peter excellent komments,
The only “sensible” solution, in my opinion, whenever TAC is deemed so important, is to
defer its judgement as further down the line as possible, in terms of workflow. In other
words, use a full RGB workflow at the client side and let the printer, who knows most
about print conditions, decide. Let him carry the responsibility should something “go
wrong”.
Most printers don’t have the time or the resource to do any kind of testing, not the ones
that I know and worked with or for over the past. No wonder they are so conservative! At
the very least, in my opinion, a printer should be able to honor “bare-minimum” kind of
industry practices, like Adobe Photoshop 260% Uncoated, 260% is a age-old figure
associated with Uncoated paper in the industry. It traces its day to Advertising Rates
& Data. To me, it is universally agreed-upon “standard” (target). If a printer finds
himself unable to meet 260% TAC on Uncoated paper, perhaps it is time to consider changing
printer or having a serious conversation with the printer technical representative, which
is usually the prepress manager who does not have a clue as to what is going on with color
reproduction… (I’m not trying to be sarcastic, just “realistic”)
Know that I personally consider 260% to be “conservative” in terms of TAC and, given the
knowledge of some presses, and some past work I seen printed on Uncoated paper, like some
Cirque du Soleil lavish, 4 color process brochures, 270% -- 280% and even 290%, it is
not far-fetch. Anything is possible when you have the customer sitting by the press side
and willing to pay for additional press time and material.
As a prepress policy, I would not do all Uncoated jobs at 280% but for those that are
warranted, why not? The customer is not going to be disappointed. I suspect many shops
have slowly increased their TAC over time. At least, the “better” printers I know have.
It’s not that hard to determine but it takes the time of one person, like Peter, to do
it!
TAC for Coated paper ought to be 320%, at least. Depends on the nature of the ink coverage
over all.
It should be dictated by the images, whether they are heavy and what is the surface
represented by those “dark areas”?
At one extreme, you could get away with 400% TAC in small areas but never over large
areas, that’s asking for trouble.
Higher TAC remains useful to push contrast in images but here are some last comments…
A) It comes down to prepress policy. I have worked in environments where they privilege
“automation” over “customization” or “optimization”, meaning, they don’t stop the line to
look at individual images. PDFs come in through the FTP pipeline and away to plates they
go. The least people touch the job on the way to the press, the happier management is. So
all arrangements, if any, have to be made ahead of time with customers, that’s the only
alternative.
B) If discussions are made ahead of production, a certain kind of planning becomes
possible and TAC *can* be discussed between the client and the printer.
C) Most printers I know here are not that knowledgeable, technically. It seems to me that
“technical printing knowledge” is slowly disappearing from the face of the earth, on both
sides of the print equation, on the client side and on the printer side.
D) It takes time to build quality. At the rate everything is going today, quality becomes
second to quantity, the idea is to produce an ever larger number of widgets at decreasing
costs. Economics is the driving factor.
My VERY humble set of experiences.
/ Roger Breton
www.graxx.ca<http://www.graxx.ca/>
From:
eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>
<eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en-bounces@lists.callassoftware.com>>
On Behalf Of Kamil Tresnak
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:36 AM
To: eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [ECI-EN] Linearization
Hi Dwight, in accordance with Peter (and by my long term experinece) - I do not use
algorithms (even if the RIP contains it). Much better is have printed a good TAC target,
make some measurement with a good handheld, and a carefully examine the material and
overprint patches.
Cheers, Kamil,
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:50 AM Peter Kleinheider
<peter@inpetto.cc<mailto:peter@inpetto.cc>> wrote:
Dwight,
For ink limit, we work with values from experience. It depends on various variables like
the used ink, the substrate, the resolution, the printing speed, usage of light inks,
...
We have not yet found an algorithm that calculates it based on the linearized single
channels. Hence we use a TAC chart when we have a new combination of parameters. As
printed ares above the maximum ink threshold may have "artefacts" that cannot
get caught using a spectrophotopmeter, a user has to decide what limit to set. Important:
it shall define the maximum TAC that can get printed on that substrate. A further
reduction to less TAC should be done when generating the ICC profile.
Happy to hear about other experiences.
best
Peter
On 22.10.2018, at 13:31, Dwight Kelly
<dkelly@apago.com<mailto:dkelly@apago.com>> wrote:
Hello,
I’m looking for references on device linearization techniques and algorithms.
Have an inkjet textile printer that’s proving difficult to characterize because of the
amount of ink it lays down. Don’t want to just pick an arbitrary ink limit. Would rather
calculate it empirically.
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
_______________________________________________
ECI-EN mailing list
ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com<mailto:ECI-EN@lists.callassoftware.com>
http://lists.callassoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/eci-en
2018
days inactive
2019
days old
eci-en@lists.callassoftware.com
2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
graxx＠videotron.ca -
Jacques Wolf -
Peter Kleinheider