To all
The discussion are very interisting and I am learning a lot. Thank you for taking time and answering Chris!
Karsten Krüger I could not find this online web place you talk about in you las mail. I would be intrested in seing it!
I have read Bruce Fraser´s articles on the advargse of editing on large spaces and its very interisting. I like to ask you if there are any down sides of all thise colores we cannot see when converting to the small CMYK color space or the ink-jet color space, and if you make hevy editing on your 16 bit file will you sooner get into banding in the big ProPhoto RGB than in LstarRGB? Karsten Krügers writes about the color rendering problem: colorimetric. It is confusing. Does it mean thet if you use perceptual rendering or relative colorimetricit the picture will be compress so the colores change as there are so much out of gamut and therefore the look and realitionship in the image will not corispond to the screen anymore? Will this convertion be more price and eacyer using the smaller colorspaces like LstarRGB?
I thought that LstarRGB was a relativly large colorspace slighly bigger than Adobe 1998 and bigger than any printed colorspace. Are ther any chance that one will develop Ink-jet printeres colorspace so that it will have a bigger colorspace than LstarRGB?
About my work flow: I start out from a raw 3f scann and start the editing from that in photoshop so the editing is large. Practely all most all my pictures has too much detail, most often in the shadow when saving the from the scanner (3f files) and I there fore whonder if the extra detail is importent wich one would get fro ProPhoto RGB. I have the raw files without an colorspace arcived so in the future I can save a new file with the possible improved colorprofiles and printing comes.
My screen is calibreted with BasiCColor in with lab mode on with eye-one.
I am fully awere thet there are no such thing as "best" colorspace for everybady but I am trying to find the one most good for my workfload. I do also understand that the diffences maby are relative small but Is a good start when printing to know that the bace is good!
(My screen is calibreted with BasiCColor with lab mode on with eye-one.)
P.s Here are some of my works:
www.30bytaik.com (look under "artist" and "Joakim Eskildsen")
P.p.s Here is an artickel on the ProPhoto rgb:
On Jun 1, 2005, at 1:27 am, Chris Murphy wrote:
On May 31, 2005, at 3:54 AM, Joakim Eskildsen wrote:
Karsten,
Thank you for your answer,
I understand that the colorspace betvien Lstar-RGB and ECI-RGB are the same and that Lstar-RGB has a LAB linar kind of gamma and ECI-RGB has a gamma of 1.8, but what I don´t understand is what is meen in practis. I have made some pictures with Lstar-RGB and printed them out on and Ink-jet printer and it somehow looks like they pictures are less colorfull than the monitor. When I make the pictures in ECI-RGB the prints comes out more true to the sceen.
In order for the comparison to really work, you would need to convert your image into Lstar-RGB and ECI-RGB separately. That is, you can't just reassign the profile to the same image; and even converting from ECI-RGB to Lstar-RGB isn't a fair comparison. Ideally, you'd have a RAW image, and use a RAW converter to process the file directly into both spaces (two separate processing events), and then do your printing test. I would expect you'd see essentially no difference.
(I did safe a 3f file from the scanner with no profile and sepreatly assign the profile to 2 no profiled images).
My cersern is to find the best possoble RGB colorspace for 16 bit editing, (color negatives scanned with imacon 949) the pictures are to go to a exhibition and shall be made on epson new ink-jet printer 9800 aswell as they shall be printed in a book using ISO coted profile.
The "best" space is kindof like the "best" religion question. Or the "best" government. Or the "best" ice cream. But at least with color spaces we have the ability to use more objective terminology to describe the relative plusses and minuses of each space.
Personally, I would edit in the largest space you can find and just stick with it. I regularly use ProPhoto RGB. It's honking huge. On the surface this doesn't sound like it would be an advantage just because the gamut is so much larger than anything you'd print to, what's the point? Well, because the gamut is so large, there it also has a larger shadow end gamut as well, and there are quite a few colors that exist down there that *are* printable, in particular on ink-jet printers, but do not exist in smaller RGB spaces.
I have read Bruce Fracer´s artickels on the advargse of editing on large spaces and its very interisting. I like to ask you if there are any down sides of all thise colores we cannot see when converting to the small CMYK color space or the ink-jet color space, and if you make hevy editing on your 16 bit file will you sooner get into banding in the big ProPhoto RGB? Practely all most all my pictures has too much detail, most often in the shadow when saving the from the scanner (3f files) and I there fore whonder if the extra detail is importent. Anyway I shall defentely give it a try!
I am fully awere thet there are no such thing as "best" but it helps to get some comments!
Few month ago I used adobe 1998 colorspace for everything but I understad that this ECI-RGB is better designed for the CMYK convertion and for ink-jet colores and decided to use ECI-RGB as my only RGB color space but now I am a bit unsure.
I think the choice between ECI-RGB, Adobe RGB (1998), and Lstar-RGB is almost like splitting hairs or trying to find out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Sometimes a project calls for this level of scrutiny, most do not. Bruce Fraser, co-author on RWCM, has been working with ProPhoto RGB (ROMM RGB) since before its public release and has put it through the grindstone and he uses it exclusively.
I can understand from Guenter Bestmann writing that ECI-RGB is the best RGB space conserning printing on Ink-jet and for the CMYK wourld?
Any kind of discussion on what is best must include a clear context. What about your images is important to you? And how good at color correction do you consider yourself? If you can say "important" and "pretty good" or better, I'd propose you do some work with ProPhoto and see what you think. But really, the effects of all these spaces are going to be subtle to all but the most discriminating eye, so I doubt you're going to be seriously disappointed regardless of what you go with.
Thank you very much for your thoughts and insight! I do consider my selv as a serius picture printer, I have being doing b/w and color prints in traditionel wet darkroom for years and have since 1998 only been doing it digitaly and are in the last few years abel to make much better prints digitaly comparet to the older cemical darkroom prints! But it is including much teckinaly considerition like this color space issue!
Chris Murphy
Color Remedies (TM)
www.colorremedies.com/realworldcolor
---------------------------------------------------------
Co-author "Real World Color Management, 2nd Ed"
Published by PeachPit Press (ISBN 0-321-26722-2)
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